harmony

seriously though, i think it's kinda weird how people here don't seem to care much about harmony. i mean there have been a few threads on the topic in the past but nothing really substantial. and don't tell me the folks here are simply not interested in discussing this topic and prefer educate themselves on their own, cause that's a fucking lie. how do i know? i've listened to your tunes in YLC, guys. the harmony's pretty bad (most of the time). no the truth is, the vast majority of watmmers don't seem to be interested in harmony at all, hence why the topic is hardly ever discussed - usually in a superficial way. there's this gap between those who know a little bit about harmony and those who don't, and the latter don't seem to give a fuck about chords, for some mysterious reason. this isn't meant to insult anyone btw. i know you guys are merely hobbyists and i respect you for making music, whether i like the results or not. 

anyways, harmony. entertain me. (please don't just post a fucking youtube tutorial)

Is this you?

  On 1/26/2022 at 6:23 PM, brian trageskin said:

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brian start a youtube channel man. you can then teach everyone everything you know about music, and potentially get paid for it! you're wasting your efforts here attempting to discuss harmony with watmmers who apparently aren't interested in it.  

  On 1/26/2022 at 2:16 AM, toaoaoad said:

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  On 1/26/2022 at 8:14 PM, iococoi said:

 

 

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sorry i had too

talking about harmony is like talking about programming... you have to know it well to be able to talk sensibly about it imo

I'm harmony obsessed, but I don't know how I'd go about talking about it.  This track started off with a single vocal sample which I kept layering up with itself, various intervals that sounded pleasing to me.  I'll probably never have a choir at my disposal, so this is the closest I can come to that:

https://zephyrnova.bandcamp.com/track/amsilem

I tend to layer up harmonies in my vocal centred songs too, but then replicating them live is always difficult/impossible.  Sometimes I have band members trying, but it's never the same.  Song I'm.recording right now has a three part harmony behind the lead vocal.  If I ever do it live, I'll have to just have my recorded voice in the background, which is kind of lame.

Elliott Smith is one of my favourite harmony arrangers.

  On 1/26/2022 at 10:07 PM, Zephyr_Nova said:

 

https://zephyrnova.bandcamp.com/track/amsilem
 

beautiful track!!!

Thank you very kindly!

  On 1/26/2022 at 8:14 PM, iococoi said:

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yeah i already posted this one in the jazz thread. the solo is pretty sick. 

  On 1/26/2022 at 7:47 PM, zero said:

brian start a youtube channel man. you can then teach everyone everything you know about music, and potentially get paid for it! you're wasting your efforts here attempting to discuss harmony with watmmers who apparently aren't interested in it.  

this thread is in fact directed towards those who are interested in harmony (or as i like to call them, the elite), whether they're beginners or advanced.

the others can stick to their shitty minor triads and die, i don't care. 

  On 1/26/2022 at 8:50 PM, xox said:

talking about harmony is like talking about programming... you have to know it well to be able to talk sensibly about it imo

i don't know the first thing about programming but harmony is pretty simple - at least the basics are. to quote the great philosopher toad, music theory is "not even complicated and you can get a decent grasp on it in like a week probably" (it took me way more time than this to learn the basics but that's because i'm disorganized, lazy and dumb - and i have a short attention span)

  On 1/26/2022 at 10:07 PM, Zephyr_Nova said:

https://zephyrnova.bandcamp.com/track/amsilem

very nice! oneohtrix would approve. 

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:11 PM, brian trageskin said:

to quote the great philosopher toad, music theory is "not even complicated and you can get a decent grasp on it in like a week probably"

lol yeah tbh I don't know how long it would actually take someone cause I had the advantage of learning as a kid, where time as we know it works in a very different way than it does for frustrated and impatient adults who already have a notion of themselves as musicians. learning has to be fun/interesting to make you want to do it.  it's probably better to go slowly than try to do it in a week or whatever. but i think for the average EKT watmmer this post seems to be directed at, yeah if you're already making music and have been doing so for awhile, but feel you're hitting a wall because you don't know any theory, you could probably watch a handful of youtube videos or get a book or two and learn pretty quickly.

the tone of the OP was not quite encouraging lol so it's hard to tell this wasn't just a shitpost. people will only learn if they want to. even being frustrated by obstacles arising out of gaps in knowledge is not necessarily enough to make someone want to put the time and effort into learning something "the legit way". adult learners have lots of ego shit to overcome, never mind reduced cognitive ability (like attention span and ability to retain information), compared to children, so it's no wonder people are resistant. i am exactly this way with plenty of other things i could stand to learn so i don't mean to "talk down" to anyone when i say jfc just pick up a book. even if it's true lol

i probably have lots more to say about this idk

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:24 PM, toaoaoad said:

i probably have lots more to say about this idk

please be my guest.

well i think it's also worth noting something that puts people off. when you learn theory from square one you kinda have to "learn the rules before you can break the rules", this is particularly true in jazz education. this is difficult for most people to accept because we live in a world where, musically speaking, anything goes, and we've been listening to all kinds of stuff all our lives that either "break the rules" or are built on pre-established patterns of the "rules" being broken and now sound normal. this just gets truer and truer all the time. 

but it is extremely helpful to do things that way. play by the rules first. forget everything you know, forget the fact that the notes they're calling "wrong" sound right to you because you heard them somewhere before. music has this "magical" quality for a lot of people and they don't like being told there are rules. and like i say, in the end, the rules do get broken in all sorts of ways, and a lot of the time this eventually results in advancement/expansion of the musical palette itself (i.e. dissonance becomes consonance) if enough people are breaking the same rule or whatever and it becomes commonplace. but there's no shortcut to that. remember any self-taught musician is still benefiting from history.

my first year in uni was a bit tedious because i had to take courses with lots of stuff i already knew. and yet that process was actually extremely helpful. knowledge has to be built up sequentially. so yeah i already knew that stuff but it was really useful to go back and reframe it in a structured way, which led to the next thing, and from there the next, etc. 

and in the end, once you've learned the "rules" (sorry to keep using this word but maybe there's a read the rules joke in there somewhere) then you know how and why to break them.  you could jump in and just break them anyway, and maybe even get away with it. but your music will always be better if there's knowledge behind it. it just will. i don't know how else to explain it and a person probably won't believe it until you've experienced it yourself, so you have to want to in the first place.

it doesn't mean you have to go on and use everything you've learned. and it absolutely does not mean that education is oppressive. people interpret it that way.... people don't like to be told what to do; this seems truer now than ever with anti-vax rhetoric and all that, the age of the individual, notions of "freedom"... so yeah i guess i don't blame anyone for not wanting to go thru this process unless they really want to enrich their experience as a musician, especially since it's hard to see why until you've gone thru the process yourself.

  On 1/26/2022 at 1:48 AM, brian trageskin said:

seriously though, i think it's kinda weird how people here don't seem to care much about harmony. i mean there have been a few threads on the topic in the past but nothing really substantial. and don't tell me the folks here are simply not interested in discussing this topic and prefer educate themselves on their own, cause that's a fucking lie. how do i know? i've listened to your tunes in YLC, guys. the harmony's pretty bad (most of the time). no the truth is, the vast majority of watmmers don't seem to be interested in harmony at all, hence why the topic is hardly ever discussed - usually in a superficial way. there's this gap between those who know a little bit about harmony and those who don't, and the latter don't seem to give a fuck about chords, for some mysterious reason. this isn't meant to insult anyone btw. i know you guys are merely hobbyists and i respect you for making music, whether i like the results or not. 

anyways, harmony. entertain me. (please don't just post a fucking youtube tutorial)

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for the same reason we aren't discussing particle physics. you're on the wrong forum bruh

to quote seanbob

"...we don't know anything about music, we still don't understand what music is really."

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/autechre-techno-logical

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:49 PM, nikisoko said:

 

to quote seanbob

"...we don't know anything about music, we still don't understand what music is really."

https://www.soundonsound.com/people/autechre-techno-logical

 

 

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the thing about AE tho is their lack of "traditional knowledge" is very apparent in a lot of their music; even programming their melodic algorithms they overlook certain clashes of notes that are not quite "yeah i thought this clash sounded cool" but rather just, oh they didn't know that when you shift to a phrygian chord in a minor key you can't play the natural second over it (this is probably THE most common "wrong note" i hear in music across genres btw)... and i say wrong note because it doesn't work as an intentionally broken rule, it just doesn't, it sounds like shit every single time.  but because the mistake is so common... i guess it's not a mistake anymore? obviously ae fans still eat it up without a second thought. but i digress.  i don't understand this pride some people have in rejecting a formal knowledge.  if they aren't interested in learning theory, why do they keep trying to write harmonically intricate pieces? you're either in it or not. that was my rant in the melody thread

EDIT:  and for the record i'm a massive autechre fan (duh) so this criticism has always had to coexist with the massive respect and admiration i have for everything else about their music, the meticulous programming and sound design, all of which i have NO knowledge of at all, so it kinda balances out. but yeah it's balanced with the occasional facepalm at their melodic/harmonic choices and occasional mentions of how proud they are to not know traditional theory, especially when it's so fast and easy to learn the basics.  still ego, i'm guessing. it always is

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:49 PM, nikisoko said:

for the same reason we aren't discussing particle physics. you're on the wrong forum bruh

your analogy is flawed, this is a forum for music enthusiasts and amateur bedroom producers. music making is at the very core of this forum, therefore harmony is part of the equation, whether people acknowledge it ot not. plus particle physics is super complex, when harmony is pretty simple, for the most part. so comparing the 2 is kinda dumb. but i see what you mean, this isn't a forum dedicated to harmony (no shit).

my point is, since harmony is an integral part of music and plays a huge role in it, we might as well talk about it in a dedicated thread (whether this one or another) and share some tips and ideas or whatever. 

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:49 PM, nikisoko said:

to quote seanbob

"...we don't know anything about music, we still don't understand what music is really."

what the fuck do i care what autechre says about music, they suck at harmony. i'd much rather read quotes from people who are actually good at it.

what the hell is harmony and what is a chord

someone please spoonfeed me the best book on music theory please

I got kind of burned out and gave up on Harmony for years, but I eventually got around to watching Trash Humpers and it really renewed my appreciation.

I'm just playing devil's advocate really. I took a decent number of music theory courses in college and have read/own a few books on theory and composition etc.  I think its kind of like going to gearspace and telling everyone there they dont need their gear. Thats probably true, but you are really talking to the wrong crowd. So much of the music that is celebrated here is written intuitively, without a formal understanding of why. I'm not saying people shouldnt learn it or that learning is bad. Its just not what most of this music is rooted in.  Similarly, we are all experiencing the effects of  physics right now, even if we dont fully understand it. So maybe we should be talking about particle physics. Or maybe I could just go to a particle physics forum.

  On 1/27/2022 at 12:55 AM, nikisoko said:

Similarly, we are all experiencing the effects of  physics right now, even if we dont fully understand it. So maybe we should be talking about particle physics. Or maybe I could just go to a particle physics forum.

i'm sorry but this analogy just doesn't work imo. i take a crap every now and then, we all do, maybe we should be talking about human biology, or maybe i could just go to a biology forum. well, this is a forum dedicated to music, and harmony is a huge part of music. plus it's not some super complex science, far from it. so a really shitty analogy indeed (no pun intended).

basics of particle physics arent hard. im really pretty confused as to why we arent talking about it right now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_physics

seems like it governs a whole lot of stuff and should probably be something we care about.

  On 1/26/2022 at 11:56 PM, toaoaoad said:

they overlook certain clashes of notes that are not quite "yeah i thought this clash sounded cool" but rather just, oh they didn't know that when you shift to a phrygian chord in a minor key you can't play the natural second over it (this is probably THE most common "wrong note" i hear in music across genres btw)... and i say wrong note because it doesn't work as an intentionally broken rule, it just doesn't, it sounds like shit every single time.  but because the mistake is so common... i guess it's not a mistake anymore? obviously ae fans still eat it up without a second thought.

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i honestly can't follow this. if ae make music with these notes and they like it, the fans like it, how can you state that this can't be done and doesn't work? are you saying that music is wrong and would be corrected if the notes were changed? this is wild, to me. madness