FFT based spectral transform FX VST list

hi,

I`m new here, so excuse me if I repeat that topic:

since I`ve heard Windowlicker - I`m in love with those so called "spectral transform" plugins or Fast Fourier Transform based effects, which are making the same "liquid", "underwater" effects like in Windowliker. I`ve tried MANY FFT based plugins for all theese years and I was dissapointed by 90% of them.

my favourite FFT based effect is: http://rekkerd.org/dtblkfx/ I use it for years, but I still look for something better.

recently I found this one which is not bad too: http://www.freewebs.com/st3pan0va/sp3ctr3.htm but still very far from my needs.

also does anyone knows what kind of machine used Afx for that effect? I belive it`s something like this: http://www.sonorouscodes.net/atmogen_overview.html

unfortunately it doesn`t work well for me, I really don`t like the idea for offline processing.

so, any links to FFT based machines which you`ve tried and you think that they`re very good would be very apreciated! and I also think that this will be usefull info for all of the producers here

edit: I`m interested in VSTs for windows but ofcourse I don`t mind if we discuss FFT fx for all platforms and standalone aplications..

No ideas from me as it is not the sort of plug in i would use. However i was under the impression the aphex used metasynth for those effects you were talking about.

Do you know, i've wanted to find out exactly the same thing ( http://forum.watmm.com/index.php?showtopic=22255 ). sp3tr3 is basically very close to what I want but the latency is waaay too high (and dtblkfx was even worse), I think it was 'ten fingers ten toes' that said that the amount of maths involved made it paractically impossible to do in realtime, but hopefully someone will prove this to be false)

Aces: Yeah, I think he could well of used Metasynth as it appears do to FFT transformations (+ he used the image->sound feature at the end of 'equation' for sticking an image of his face in), shame it's mac only, plus again it doesn't look realtime.

csound!

yeah. if you can't use csound due to brain falling apart, try the front end called Cecilia.

cecilia is badass! but mac only

(well, there was a crippled gimp windows version at some point in time but it seems to be gone and i wouldn't recommend looking for it)

more!

Praat

SPEAR (mac only but excellent)

SPEAR is not Mac only! I have it running on Windows!

  mcbpete said:

Aces: Yeah, I think he could well of used Metasynth as it appears do to FFT transformations (+ he used the image->sound feature at the end of 'equation' for sticking an image of his face in), shame it's mac only, plus again it doesn't look realtime.

not fft-related, but have you tried coagula?

again, sadly not realtime

The math involved in FFT is really brutal, and not just that but there's no way to do shortcuts, according to my math majoring in undergrad comp sci phd'd wife, it's just so hard to do in a short amount of time because you're doing discrete algebra on matrix tables and have to go through the whole set before you get any type of answer. I actually don't even know what all that means but it sounds complicated. I wouldn't really hold out for realtime super precise FFT anytime soon.

  iep said:

cecilia is badass! but mac only

 

(well, there was a crippled gimp windows version at some point in time but it seems to be gone and i wouldn't recommend looking for it)

 

more!

 

Praat

 

SPEAR (mac only but excellent)

cecilia is not mac only, same with spear. but great progs, i use them all the time.

Praat is good, bit of a learning curve. the phonetic stuff is great. AeeeOoUHHhHAaaaOOOuuUEE

I believe he used metasynth, of course I could be completely mistaken. Also, TFTT: the fft IS a shortcut of the fourier transform and the math behind most integral transforms is elegant and comparatively simple. There are MANY optimized (and accurate) implementations of the fft in the public domain. Most of the software that Kink is referring uses short time fourier transforms on windowed snippets of data to build a time/frequency representation of the signal, then perform various operations on the resulting set of partials. I believe that csound and max both have phase vocoder implementations as well.

Anyway, metasynth is fairly interesting to play with.

Edit: Additionally, any delay caused by an fft is NOT due to "complex maths" but is a group delay on the signal introduced by filling a buffer so that the fft has data to work on. typical delays are 512, 1024, 2048 samples etc.

Awesome, however it's obviously still beyond the realm of realtime processing?

  ten fingers ten toes said:

Awesome, however it's obviously still beyond the realm of realtime processing?

well you have to qualify "realtime". most delays introduced by realtime fft's aren't perceptible, but if your fft size is gigantic than the group delay will be heard.

So howcome stuff like sp3ctr3 and dtblkfx isn't even close to realtime?

  ten fingers ten toes said:

So howcome stuff like sp3ctr3 and dtblkfx isn't even close to realtime?

I'm not sure what those are. Could be as simple as poor implementation or large window sizes but you would have to ask the devs. I have a kyma system that can do realtime fft based manipulations and I guarantee that the processor running your pc is a lot more powerful than those DSPs.

Yah it's more powerful, but its less specialized, I'm not sure my PC could really emulate my Nord Micro Modular without really struggling and/or failing. It chokes to death trying to run the G2 emulator, and that's not even doing any FFT!

  ten fingers ten toes said:

Yah it's more powerful, but its less specialized, I'm not sure my PC could really emulate my Nord Micro Modular without really struggling and/or failing. It chokes to death trying to run the G2 emulator, and that's not even doing any FFT!

Yes, your pc's processor is stretched pretty thin, especially if you are running windows.

Well I was sure there was a reason people still pay $2-6000 for Kyma systems.

hey thanx to all for the software recomendations!

actually I don`t think that the big latency is a huge problem, we can allways remove those FFT fx from the chain till we play on our midi keyboards. and I rarely play on keyboard on experiental / techno stuff, I`m programming it, so the latency is not a big problem here. I`m just not 100 % satisfyed by the processed sound from theese real-time FFT effects, they`re very close to the sound that I`m going after, especially DT BlockFX and Sp3ctr3, but something is missing! as I`m listening to Windowlicker, Equation , some tunes from Mike Dred & Peter Green - Virtual Farmer and Speedy J - A Shocking Hobby album...

there is the same liquid effect, but also some weird harmonics added! like played through a vocoder. it`s not a vocoder, because theese harmonics are allways surrounded by the liquid and smearing effect of the FFT processing... so theese odd harmonics are obviously an aspect of the FFT fx, I`m still looking for this one which makes it, and it could be plugged and automated in my vst host:)

anyway, those programs for offline processing are very interesting too!!!

I`ll keep searching..

  KiNK said:

hey thanx to all for the software recomendations!

 

actually I don`t think that the big latency is a huge problem, we can allways remove those FFT fx from the chain till we play on our midi keyboards. and I rarely play on keyboard on experiental / techno stuff, I`m programming it, so the latency is not a big problem here. I`m just not 100 % satisfyed by the processed sound from theese real-time FFT effects, they`re very close to the sound that I`m going after, especially DT BlockFX and Sp3ctr3, but something is missing! as I`m listening to Windowlicker, Equation , some tunes from Mike Dred & Peter Green - Virtual Farmer and Speedy J - A Shocking Hobby album...

 

there is the same liquid effect, but also some weird harmonics added! like played through a vocoder. it`s not a vocoder, because theese harmonics are allways surrounded by the liquid and smearing effect of the FFT processing... so theese odd harmonics are obviously an aspect of the FFT fx, I`m still looking for this one which makes it, and it could be plugged and automated in my vst host:)

 

anyway, those programs for offline processing are very interesting too!!!

 

I`ll keep searching..

Look into noise reduction plugins as well. A lot of them begin to spectrally "smear" at extreme settings.

  Count Binoculars said:

Look into noise reduction plugins as well. A lot of them begin to spectrally "smear" at extreme settings.

true! that`s how I found what is FFT! back in the days I found that the Sonic Foundry Noise Reduction DX sounds very Afx:) and I checked what is the way of signal processing.. I will look what`s new with the Nosie Reduction plugs:) thanx for the reminding:)

  thanks robert moses said:

  iep said:

cecilia is badass! but mac only

 

(well, there was a crippled gimp windows version at some point in time but it seems to be gone and i wouldn't recommend looking for it)

 

more!

 

Praat

 

SPEAR (mac only but excellent)

 

cecilia is not mac only, same with spear. but great progs, i use them all the time.

 

Praat is good, bit of a learning curve. the phonetic stuff is great. AeeeOoUHHhHAaaaOOOuuUEE

cool, i didn't know about the windows port of SPEAR! cecilia though, i can't find the windows version online anymore, every site gives a 404 and i remember it being extremely crummy and messy when i tried it a while back, it didnt come closes to the 2.x version for the mac. it's a shame because i think cecilia is a good gateway into csound.

  Count Binoculars said:

Look into noise reduction plugins as well. A lot of them begin to spectrally "smear" at extreme settings.

good advice, someone showed me some tricks with noise reduction in adobe audition a while ago and that sounded really interesting

Prosoniq morph (for side chaining but if you make this a send FX on a group channel and route 2 sounds to it, left and right you can crossfade spectrally between the sounds making a pretty conving morphging effect, probably the 2nd best spectral morphing besides Kyma out right now)

Anarchy FX (spectral corkscrew pitchshifting effect aka shepard pitch shifting, sine wave and white noise decomposer, spectral uppder harmonic adder)

Vokator (use any wave file or live input to vocode another wave file or live input)

Kyma X ($3000 unreachable but the best spectral effects out there)

Bidule convoluters

noise reduction plugins = great idea, these were the first software implementations of FFT effecting, and some of them like Sonic Foundry noise reducer for the old soundforge sound ridiculously juicy and weird.

  Orubasarot said:

  thanks robert moses said:

  iep said:

cecilia is badass! but mac only

 

(well, there was a crippled gimp windows version at some point in time but it seems to be gone and i wouldn't recommend looking for it)

 

more!

 

Praat

 

SPEAR (mac only but excellent)

 

cecilia is not mac only, same with spear. but great progs, i use them all the time.

 

Praat is good, bit of a learning curve. the phonetic stuff is great. AeeeOoUHHhHAaaaOOOuuUEE

 

I'm actually geniunely non-flamingly curious to hear what you've done with this software, not even for critique but actual curiosity, because your musical influences are a lot more interesting to me than the middleaged nerd shit that the programmers behind software like this tend to go for.

 

Edit: Useful link removed!

a collaboration project of mine will have an ep out soon enough that is sound design intensive. not so much praat, though, as i am still new to it.

also, in reference to all of these open source environments, these are useful (though i haven't developed anything for myself as of yet. maybe one of these days..)

http://www.csounds.com/manual/html/vst4cs.html

http://crca.ucsd.edu/~jsarlo/pdvst/

dbtlfx is perfectly usable. You don't even need to have PDC turned on you can have the latency set to exactly 2 beats or whatever. Then just skew the track its on by two beats.