Investing in an external soundcard

I'm currently looking into getting an external soundcard for my lappy. I'm essentially after one for 2 reasons - one, future recording when I finally get my studio together, and 2, enhanced sound quality when playing out and about. (I'm currently using the headphone out). Couple of quick questions -

Will there be a massive difference in terms of audio quality between using the outs on the soundcard and the headphone out? I'm aware that laptop stock soundcards are notoriously low quality, and I occasionally experience the odd split second drop out in Ableton, will an external soundcard help sort this out?

How easy will it be to intergrate external effects in my live setup - I'm guessing it will be computer -> soundcard -> effects -> mixer, correct?

Also would I be correct in assuming that the soundcard will aid in slowing down CPU usage when using soft synths etc? Or is that still swallowed up by my laptop?

I'm looking at the Audiofire 4 currently, seems to be pretty good from what I've read online. Anyone got any other suggestions before I take the plunge? Cheers all.

  Solo Strike said:

Will there be a massive difference in terms of audio quality between using the outs on the soundcard and the headphone out? I'm aware that laptop stock soundcards are notoriously low quality, and I occasionally experience the odd split second drop out in Ableton, will an external soundcard help sort this out?

How easy will it be to intergrate external effects in my live setup - I'm guessing it will be computer -> soundcard -> effects -> mixer, correct?

Also would I be correct in assuming that the soundcard will aid in slowing down CPU usage when using soft synths etc? Or is that still swallowed up by my laptop?

echo cards are good.

the sound quality should improve.

don't expect an external soundcard to remove any noise issues you may have with the power supply on your laptop.

if you get decent asio drivers you shouldn't get dropouts, and you should experience negligible latency.

computer>soundcard>mixer. effects get patched into the auxiliary sends and returns on your mixer. it's often wise if you have a multi buss output on your mixer to send the alt out back to your pc, so you can add effects and record them.

cpu useage should improve.

hope that helps.

Cheers for that, great advice as always loganfive. Don't think I've experienced any power issues - I've heard of the whole power hum thing before, might experiment when I get home as I normally always keep my laptop plugged in anyway. Wonder if there will be any difference. Dropouts I get normally occur if I'm idling mixing on Ableton and internetting, downloading, etc - when I shut down all other programs it doesn't seem to really happen. I'm using Asio4all.

That routing of effects sounds great for home studio use, but what about when playing live when routing through a send/return on a mixer might not be an option?

i don't quite understand why usong a send/return would be an issue when playing live.

take your desk, set up like you would at home, give the soundguy left and right from the main outputs of your desk.

Having no desk might be the issue! Haha. Not quite at that stage of studio setup yet. When I've played out before, I always run it from computer->Kaoss pad->mixer, which has always worked out pretty much OK.

should work fine if that's what you're used to.

Getting an external soundcard won't improve CPU usage, the CPU will still be the one computing all the VSTs, so if your processor can't handle the amount of VSTs in the track, it will still stutter. If this is a problem you want to improve, and you don't already have a laptop with a dual core processor, that would be the only suggestion that could help.

Having low latency is good if you're planning on mixing down your VST tracks into audio tracks. If you play only audio files, then a low latency sound card will make it easier to sync things and control effects without being more than 0.25 seconds off. Though a lot of internal soundcards can do this, so you should check to see if your's is capable.

Yeah I don't know you are experiencing low sound quality with your internal soundcard, but the electric hum created by grounding issues would be pretty obvious, so you most likely don't have this problem. If you do, though, an external soundcard won't fix the problem. There may be some sort of device that can fix it, but what I do, and it's a $1 fix, is get one of those 3 way splitters that has a ground on it. Break the ground off the end that plugs into the wall. You know have noise free sound on your laptop!!!

Overall I will say, that unless you want to get MIDI in and out (which you can get dedicated boxes for nowadays anyways), or your laptop has other issues like the noise of the harddrive being audible in the sound card, I personally wouldn't invest in an expensive soundcard before other things. It's definitely good to get one. If you do get one, I should add, make sure it has stereo in. One of the only reasons I got an external soundcard is because laptops never have stereo in jacks. But yes, the quality of an onboard soundcard shouldn't at all be noticeable at a live set, and if you're at home you should be rendering your tracks instead of playing them live anyways, to get higher quality (I doubt your computer could handle tracks being played at higher than 44100Hz if you are hoping that an external soundcard will improve CPU usage)

Either way good luck on your decision!!

tamas is right about the cpu useage. my bad. sorry.

I'm an advocate of high quality converters and preamps etc. when it comes to audio. a low and mid, and a mid and high setup is certainly noticeable but very subtle. The stuff you notice with different quality setups is often quite airy and mystical. Things just sound realer, clearer and more spacious. Music through good converters (provided your speakers are ok) can sound so well represented that you feel like you are sitting in the sound and you can pick out subtle little bits of sound to focus on with ease.

Its also a delight to listen to music on.

BUT

for live, most places don't really have a good enough setup for the difference in quality to make a big difference,and even those that do are fighting so many room and big speaker anomalies for it to be super important, unless you are playing at a big and very well kitted out venue.

also, when making tunes, the important stuff is all done inside the box and the quality of your soundcard wont effect the quality of your final wave file. UNLESS you are planning on going through a desk in which case the process of coming out of the computer into a desk then back in via the soundcard means the interface's quality is going to be a factor.

monitoring with a really nice card is great and it can really help your mixes, but not as much as investing in a good set of monitors.

so for you I would probably suggest doing that first.

if you are recording a lot of sounds then this will be improved no end by a good soundcard. if not, a lot of the money you are spending will be going on inputs you never use.

If you think that you would like the benefit of hearing back music in really high quality, and you are not planning on recording much, then maybe look at getting a dedicated DAC. There are not many on the market and those that are are quite expensive but you know that even an 'entry level' on will make a big difference. something like the apogee duet will sound really really good for the money and with it you also get one very nice (apogee doesn't really make anything rubbish) input as well.

a bit higher up the foodchain is the apogee mini dac, these are comparable to the best dac's out there, bar the really top end stuff.

both of these will improve sound quality A LOT but may be (especially the mini dac) a bit pricey.

as you get to the lower end of the market the difference is less pronounced, and there are an abundance of options.

basically, id say that if you are your average in the box electronic musician treat it all with a very sceptical air and make sure you have good speakers and are happy with the mixes you get on them first. If you want to take it to the next level, or want to record a lot of stuff then start thinking about how much you are looking to spend and get back to us :) bear in mind the big differences are gonna cost a bit of money, but you can get great quality for pretty cheap these days.

sorry just noticed you said you were looking at the audio fire 4, apparently they are pretty good, you should notice a difference coming out, and a big difference going in. I think that for a bit more you could upgrade in quality significantly though. a motu 828 should be available second hand for only a little more than the cost of the echo and has more input s and a reputable sound.

never count out second hand, if you are discerning you can get a real gem for up to half price and if they have been well looked after it will be no different from buying new, try the sound on sound reader ads. its such a fringe market that you dont get many scammers trying to make a quick buck with dodgy gear. I recently bought close to £2500 worth of soundcards for my setup (a metric halo uln 2 dsp and a liquid channel) and it came to a bit over £1000 second hand and they were both mint condition, well worth the look!

  Solo Strike said:

I always run it from computer->Kaoss pad->mixer

is that the best way to chain the Kaoss? i'm about to set mine up inline, and i was gonna go pc>mixer>efx send>kaoss>efx return>mixer>pc in. am i introducing too many links to my recording setup?

Urgh, I wrote out a massive reply to this but my computer didn't post it for some reason.... here we go again

Basically I'm looking at getting the best sound output for shows in the short term, but in the long term I'm hoping this will be a good addition to the studio I'm slowly getting together - I have tons of instruments (guitars, kalimbas, glockenspiels, harmonium etc)and no way to really record them at the moment, so I'm thinking about getting this and a mic at a later date and going to town. Also I don't have any MIDI setup at the moment, and down the road I def want to get some more synths, so this would be useful for that.

That Motu looks good, but it's rack and I need something I can take to gigs with me. I'm currently splitting the output from my laptops headphone port into L+R phono, which doesn't really feel very professional, though it's done me alright for playing plenty of parties/pubs/raves etc. I've hopefully got a pretty good gig next week and I'd like to have something that feels a bit more secure and sounds better if that's going to be possible. That's pretty much what is inspiring the purchase at the moment. What's the difference between an audio interface and a DAC? Also would the Audiofire 2 be more suited for my needs? I was planning to route everything through a mixer in the end anyway, so could I not just do that and have the output from there going into one input on the soundcard?

Oh yeah, I was pretty sure I wasn't getting ground hum, but I did a few tests last night, no difference really which is what I thought. I have a pretty stupidly big system in my living room (more like a small PA really!) and couldn't pick anything up on that.

Final question, if I do take the plunge anyone got any good advice of where to buy online? I normally just go through the ebay route, but there's no Audiofires there at the moment. Dolphin Music look alright but stupid expensive.

Cheers guys, some sound advice being offered here

an audio interface is a box which allows your pc to integrate with outside audio and (in some cases)midi sources, power midi, and output audio.

a dac is a digital to analogue converter.

have you tried imuso.co.uk?

yeah i mentioned the dac if you were just after pristine output, the mini dac I mentioned is both a dac and a firewire interface. so its kind of a soundcard but with no input, however it has a digital in so you can combine it with a high quality ADC (the opposite, an analogue to digital converter!) later.

something like this is good if you want to use a very nice channel strip but want a minimal setup as a lot of channel strips/pre amps have optional straight to digital ADC add-on cards. This is an expensive and but very flexible option but it can end up with the very best results. its kinda like a very simple modular soundcard..

but for you, I don't think that would do what you want.

you could get a small rack unit and take that to gigs, you could also add a few other fun bits of rack gear like effects etc for live performances, but yeah it is just another bulky thing to cart around.

if you like the motu stuff look at the motu traveller, its a bit more expensive but super portable, bus powered so you dont have to plug it in (great for getting samples in wierd places). it also has good midrange preamps and converters and lots of them! second hand i imagine you may see one for £300-£400. that might take some waiting though, so i'd maybe just go for the one you have seen, check the reviews on sound on sound, they seem pretty good.

You can just connect things to your mixer and go stereo out into the soundcard, but thats not going to be too much use in a studio unless you only want to record 1 or 2 mono things at a time! recording drums, for example is a nightmare like that because you need to balance pan and eq them before you press record because you wont be able to after with only a single stereo track! This is near impossible to get perfect because the needs, eq pan and level wise, of the drums will change as you add everything else, and doing drums last is just silly. there are workarounds but they are all far from perfect and very fiddly.

ideally for recording you want a mixer with direct outs/inserts to go from mic to channel to computer. then spare channels to go from computer to mixer, then a controll room/monitor out to your speakers and a main out to mix down the final thing back to computer.

you want as many inputs on the soundcard as you want to record simultaneously, for drums i'd say you could get away with 4 or 5, less in a really nice sounding room. for a full live band you need lots!

if you are planing to mix in the box then this setup is simplified, add any external effects and you will have to think about it a bit more but its not too hard once you get your head aroud it!

man i always go to write a few sentences and end up rambling on, well i hope it helps!

Cheers for your advice - I can't see that I've ever want to record drums or anything though, I think it would be one instrument at a time really... I don't really see any problems in doing that? I'm thinking if the Audiofire 2 might be more suited to my needs as I only need something basic... however that gets rid of the pre-amps and some XLR ins... not too sure how useful those would be?? Hmm.

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop/flypage/product_id/15610

  Solo Strike said:

Cheers for your advice - I can't see that I've ever want to record drums or anything though, I think it would be one instrument at a time really... I don't really see any problems in doing that? I'm thinking if the Audiofire 2 might be more suited to my needs as I only need something basic... however that gets rid of the pre-amps and some XLR ins... not too sure how useful those would be?? Hmm.

 

http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop/flypage/product_id/15610

cool, that makes everything a lot cheaper then!

for that sort of thing you may not even need a mixer, just do everything inside the box. The Xlr inputs are connected directly to the mic pre's and in loosing them you loose the ability to record a mic straight into it. A preamp is vital for recording using a microphone, getting an xlr to jack converter and going straight into one of the jack sockets will produce bad or no results.

I'd also imagine that the 4 (or whatever the larger one was called!) has phantom power 'on' the xlr ins, which is needed for recording with condensor/capacitor microphones. This sort of microphone is the standard for high quality, detailed recordings so phantom power may be necessary for you. That said for a bit of money you can get a good dynamic (non powered) mic which will sound pretty good, they are just a lot less detailed and less 'realistic' generally, you'll still need a mic pre with this sort of mic.

however it doesn't need to be the interface which supplies phantom power xlr inputs and a mic pre, even a small mixing desk normally has these. then you could come out of your desk into the audiofire and you're sorted!

the only trouble i can see with the audiofire 2 is that it only has 2 outputs, or one stereo output which leaves you with limited flexibility with using external effects bits and bobs, if you are running a stereo mix then there are no outputs left to send a snare to a kaoss pad for example!

It all depends on where you see it developing, its annoying when you buy something and have to sell it for half the price a year later to upgrade!

OK, think I'm getting quite a clear picture with where this is going now. One final quick question, if I wanted to run a stereo out to Kaoss pad (which just has normal red/white phono connections) from Audiofire, would I plug into both 1/4" output jacks, select a stereo out setting on the Audiofire, and lead both seperate wires into a red and white phono end for the Kaoss pad? I'm almost certain that's how it would work, just want to get it clear in my head.

Oh, and I'm still having problems getting these interfaces for a decent price online, if anyone has any other suggestions?? It's incredibly frustrating that the 4 seems to go for £160 in the States, yet is £230 over here. Ideally I'd like to get the 4 model if I can find it for a reasonable price. http://www.imuso.co.uk don't seem to stock them, thanks for the suggestion though

  Solo Strike said:

I'm thinking if the Audiofire 2 might be more suited to my needs as I only need something basic... however that gets rid of the pre-amps and some XLR ins... not too sure how useful those would be?? Hmm.

I'd personally stretch just a little bit further and go for the Audiofire4. I bought mine on the recommendation of Mr. Loganfive about 6 months ago and haven't looked back. Having the extra inputs and outputs really will be worth it in the longterm. I managed to get mine for £180 from turnkey, but then they've gone out of business now so that's not really an option, I'm sure you'd be able to find one for around that anyway...

Yep I read that thread, very informative it was too! :) £180ish is reasonable I think, but can't find any for less than £220ish which is annoying. Turnkey have it listed at £199 on their site but don't really trust ordering from them as they're in administration... basically need it pretty sharpish as I'm playing a gig next Friday and need to be familiar with it for then.

Hmm, you're right. I have no idea quite how I got it quite so cheap from them then ?

The cheapest I can find it for is £198 from at Fathead music: http://www.fatheadmusic.co.uk/product/2060/audiofire-4/

  Solo Strike said:

OK, think I'm getting quite a clear picture with where this is going now. One final quick question, if I wanted to run a stereo out to Kaoss pad (which just has normal red/white phono connections) from Audiofire, would I plug into both 1/4" output jacks, select a stereo out setting on the Audiofire, and lead both seperate wires into a red and white phono end for the Kaoss pad? I'm almost certain that's how it would work, just want to get it clear in my head.

yeah thats all there is too it, in your computer 1 and 2 would be main mix and 3 and 4 you could rename kaoss pad. the kaos pad could then go to your mixer then to speakers, or you could put it back into the spare inputs of the audiofire and record down the result!

as for cheap places to get it from, i dont know, but turnkey have been bought out by Proffessional Music Technology I think, so they are no longer in administration but they are probably in a crossover period. Mabe worth a call to them to see if they are running under normal service!

Just gone for the Audiofire 4. I'm gonna be broke this month!!! Haha. Still, I'm sure it will be worth it in the long term. I'm playing Bangface next Friday, gonna be on best form with it I think.

Good choice man! In 2-3 months time you won't notice where the extra funds went and you'll also have an awesome soundcard to play with.