Is there an Electrical/Electronic Engineer here?

So we were talking about electrical energy in college lately. All about the growth in electricity and how sometimes its the most

efficient way to transfer energy and in other instances its its not.

But the subject of storing electrical energy came up a few times and the lecturer got distracted he did say its not possible to

store electrical energy efficiently enough for large amounts. Why the fuck is that? I mean sure some sort of massive capacitor

could be made and would solve the whole load/demand deal.

I tried to fine a similar question on Yahoo answers but the best answer was "You can store electrical energy in batteries".

Which is completely retarded so I thought I'd ask here.

Also

are you seriously expecting a simple, dumbed down answer to such the topic?

  On 2/20/2010 at 1:05 AM, elusive4 said:

are you seriously expecting a simple, dumbed down answer to such the topic?

No Im expecting a pretty inclusive one. Doesnt need to be pages if someone could point me towards some literature that'd be cool too.

In fact, there is a way to store an incredible amount of electricity. I copied-pasted a long article about it, so I had to hide the text in spoilers.

*Waits for real answer*

I work for an electric company, they are currently installing a giant solar panel grid. Will axe someone about this tomorrow, and get laughed at, but try to get an answer.

  On 2/20/2010 at 1:27 AM, Brandi_B said:

I work for an electric company, they are currently installing a giant solar panel grid. Will axe someone about this tomorrow, and get laughed at, but try to get an answer.

Cheers. Which electrical company might I ask? A major one?

It just seems to be taken for granted and no one has ever told me why. Surely this would be a decent area for advancement.

I was thinking of how you might do it and the only thing I could think of was like a giant capacitor with a honeycomb structure to maximize the surface area.

entropy

If you mean storing large volumes of electricity in batteries then I would imagine that it has to do with the stability of the chemicals inside. My impression is that the larger a battery is, the more cells it has which makes it more unstable.

Other indirect ways of storing electrical energy would be like a dam, which isn't really limited in how much energy it could store.

  On 2/20/2010 at 1:35 AM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

entropy

Thats the answer to every question.

  On 2/20/2010 at 1:52 AM, Yegg said:

If you mean storing large volumes of electricity in batteries then I would imagine that it has to do with the stability of the chemicals inside. My impression is that the larger a battery is, the more cells it has which makes it more unstable.

 

Other indirect ways of storing electrical energy would be like a dam, which isn't really limited in how much energy it could store.

But batteries change it into chemical energy and the losses there would be great(I presume). I'm talking more like storing direct electrical energy.

Not really, I mean a capacitor uses the same principle as a battery to store charge but it's passive. If anything a capacitor is a lot more limited in its size than a battery.

You mean like catch a lightning bolt in a jar?

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:03 AM, varius said:

Ultracapacitors

Technology -> Disadvantages:

* High self-discharge - the rate is considerably higher than that of an electrochemical battery.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:03 AM, varius said:

Ultracapacitors

Yeah Ive heard of these. Im sorry my OP wasnt very clear. I was talking on a large scale i.e Power Grid kinda stuff.

All this stuff, would suggest theyre not very suitable for grid lines.

  Quote

Disadvantages

The amount of energy stored per unit weight is considerably lower than that of an electrochemical battery (3-5 W·h/kg for an ultracapacitor as of 2010[citation needed] compared to 30-40 W·h/kg for a lead acid battery), and about 1/10,000th the volumetric energy density of gasoline.

Low working voltage

As with any capacitor, the voltage varies with the energy stored. Effective storage and recovery of energy requires complex electronic control and switching equipment, with consequent losses of energy

Has the highest dielectric absorption of any type of capacitor.

High self-discharge - the rate is considerably higher than that of an electrochemical battery.

Cells have low voltages - serial connections are needed to obtain higher voltages. Voltage balancing is required if more than three capacitors are connected in series.

Linear discharge voltage prevents use of the full energy spectrum.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:04 AM, Yegg said:

Not really, I mean a capacitor uses the same principle as a battery to store charge but it's passive. If anything a capacitor is a lot more limited in its size than a battery.

 

You mean like catch a lightning bolt in a jar?

I'll try to explain.

When the electrical power companies generate power they send it instantaneously down the cables to who ever maybe using it. When the get a high demand for energy they have to generate more electrical energy. When there is a lower demand they have to lower the amount that they generate.

What Im asking is: Why cant you generate a load of energy whenever you want, meet the demand and store any supplementary energy in some sort of storage device?

^Good reason.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:15 AM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule's_laws

I know what Joule's laws are. But still after that refresher course of a page, I'm still no more enlightened. Are you saying the heating effect is an issue?

Maybe I need some sleep to make my brain do think good.

giant capacitors seem like an overly long-winded answer to a need best served by a small pile of radioactive shit slowly burned to make steam by a bunch of men in clipboards

edit: flywheels

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:22 AM, chassis said:

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:15 AM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule's_laws

I know what Joule's laws are. But still after that refresher course of a page, I'm still no more enlightened. Are you saying the heating effect is an issue?

 

Maybe I need some sleep to make my brain do think good.

electric energy tends to become heat through time because of entropy

superconductors might store electricity for a longer time because R=0, but you'd have to use a lot of liquid nitrogen/helium to keep them cool

I'm just being all smart and posting in this thread.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:30 AM, hahathhat said:

giant capacitors seem like an overly long-winded answer to a need best served by a small pile of radioactive shit slowly burned to make steam by a bunch of men in clipboards

 

edit: flywheels

Men with clipboards who fuck up and make it a massive unihabitable wasteland for millions of years. But i wasnt really talking about Nuclear plants anyway.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:32 AM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:22 AM, chassis said:

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:15 AM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joule's_laws

I know what Joule's laws are. But still after that refresher course of a page, I'm still no more enlightened. Are you saying the heating effect is an issue?

 

Maybe I need some sleep to make my brain do think good.

electric energy tends to become heat through time because of entropy

 

superconductors might store electricity for a longer time because R=0, but you'd have to use a lot of liquid nitrogen/helium to keep them cool

Ahh, that makes perfect sense. But how long does electrical energy need to be sitting there before it dissipates(correct term?).

Also, superconductors and liquid nitrogen are awesome. We got to fuck around with them in the lab. Just thought I'd add that in.

  On 2/20/2010 at 2:39 AM, chassis said:

Ahh, that makes perfect sense. But how long does electrical energy need to be sitting there before it dissipates(correct term?).

 

Also, superconductors and liquid nitrogen are awesome. We got to fuck around with them in the lab. Just thought I'd add that in.

well, that depends on the material's resistance in which you're storing electricity and the amount of current through the material (see Joule's laws wiki). The higher the one those is, the shorter you can store electricity

What about an insulated capacitor? Im just chucking around ideas here. 0 current = 0 resistance.

  On 2/20/2010 at 3:42 AM, chassis said:

What about an insulated capacitor? Im just chucking around ideas here. 0 current = 0 resistance.

that would heat the capacitor thus increasing its resistance (ρ=(1+α)ΔT or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistivity#Temperature_dependence )

0 resistance doesn't always imply 0 current