Counterpoint in harmonics

I am currently trying to find out how counterpoint in harmonic theory works. can somebody explain?

basically inversions, double-time and half-time variations of a phrase juxtaposed against different iterations of itself.

you might have a voice that goes a certain number of keys up a scale for a melody, then another voice that goes the same distance down. it's very math-y and you might wanna look up bach's fugue rules.

but i like to think of it as making a horisontal path through the keys, then having other voices following the same steps, but up instead of down, a little faster, a little slower, a little bit ahead or a little bit behind, or entirely backwards.

the variations are usually played on a different octave.

i never really gave two shits about theorizing it. i just kind of get lost in a daydream of midi piano rolls. there's lots of listening to it over and over, and saying, that note should move there. sometimes you'll see some trends/patterns and can roll with that, just start painting out shapes of midi blocks based on whatever you just noticed.

then, there is the copy+paste function.....

I sometimes make diamond-like shapes in my piano rolls, sometimes it gives interesting results.

  On 9/5/2010 at 8:57 PM, Sprigg said:

I sometimes make diamond-like shapes in my piano rolls, sometimes it gives interesting results.

yes, this sort of thing... helixes... lines of notes flexing together, but in their own ways

here is a screencap i took ages ago

also i named a song spatula because the midi looked like spatulas. after i noticed that i started making SPATULA STORY, here is where it flips the food, here is where the food is on too long and starts to burn, flip again

i'm absolutely horrible about taking this shit seriously!

My best advice, is likely not what you want to hear.

But I say close your eyes and use your ears. Make adjustments, repeat. Just listen. The more you think about it the more time your track will take.

Counterpoint is what makes up "Contrapuntal" music. "counterpoint" refers to 2 or more melodies happening at the same time. It can also just be referred to as "polyphonic" music. The two melodies happen at the same time, but are independent, yet fit together. Whereas if they were both played at separate times in the piece, without any other melody occurring during those bars, it would not be contrapuntal .... or counter point.

Counterpoint, in general, also implies that the pitch, and rhythm going on in the adjacent rhythm, is not the same as the other. However, not always, and it's still considered counterpoint with small variations. The difference is referred to as simultaneous (not much if any variation) or independent (lot's of variation).

One of the simplest examples is "row row row your boat" where one section of a chorus starts singing, and then the next section comes in singing "row row row your boat" as the other is at "gently down the stream". This is called singing "in the round".

I often come across counterpoint when running through scales on my guitar, trying to come up with a melody, or solo. Often I'll veer off from the scale on purpose, or more often than i like, make a mistake while playing the scale, and eureka, find a nice note that sounds wrong but fits but most of the time, only in a stacatto 32nd note, but throwing that one note into a scale and running it at the same time as the other (when recording obviously) makes for a fantastic minor variation.

I enjoy how tool uses counterpoint, but with rhythm mostly instead of notes.

Most of all Tchaikovsky. Oh <3. It is no secret I am obsessed with his work. He exploited counterpoint and used it at it's best. I love it, but it's not so strict and it's usually so sudden you can almost miss is. That's how I learned abotu it, asking my guitar teacher some odd years ago, "what do you call this, when this happens right here". And I got me some learnin'.

He was also a master at "Stretto" which to means "one voice coming in with material from another voice, before the other voice has finished". But that's a whole different topic.

A few small examples in the first movement of Souvenir de Florence

Tons in movement IV (final)

Such a beautiful and fierce piece of music!

A good search word is "Fugue" in reference to classical pieces. To familiarize more with the concept. A fugue by rule, has at least 3 independent voices, and are some of the best examples of counterpoint.

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 movement I

Also here around the :24 mark. Another Fine example.

Beyond basic understanding of the concept, which you may already have. If wanting to know how to execute said Counterpoint melodies, just make constant reference to the circle of 5ths, and scale charts which show you what scales work with each other. Pentatonic just being one small, but common, example.

o00o, pm me your email address and I'll send you a decent book on the subject.

Also, Bach is your friend when it comes to learning the fundamentals. I would start with his two part inventions. They're very short pieces canonically built off of simple eight note melodies that are inverted, played backwards, modulated, etc... all while following very definite contrapuntal guidelines.

*shrugs*

  On 9/6/2010 at 1:45 AM, hahathhat said:

(cubase screen cap)

as someone who used cubase for rewiring reason, used lots of vsts, did lots of multitracking and midi editing I can say:

cubase is fucking weak sauce compared to Reaper (capped out of respect)

http://forum.watmm.com/topic/59283-reaper/

i tried reaper and it was way too barebones. sorry man

  On 9/6/2010 at 5:34 AM, Brandi_B said:

My best advice, is likely not what you want to hear.

 

But I say close your eyes and use your ears. Make adjustments, repeat. Just listen. The more you think about it the more time your track will take.

 

Counterpoint is what makes up "Contrapuntal" music. "counterpoint" refers to 2 or more melodies happening at the same time. It can also just be referred to as "polyphonic" music. The two melodies happen at the same time, but are independent, yet fit together. Whereas if they were both played at separate times in the piece, without any other melody occurring during those bars, it would not be contrapuntal .... or counter point.

 

Counterpoint, in general, also implies that the pitch, and rhythm going on in the adjacent rhythm, is not the same as the other. However, not always, and it's still considered counterpoint with small variations. The difference is referred to as simultaneous (not much if any variation) or independent (lot's of variation).

 

One of the simplest examples is "row row row your boat" where one section of a chorus starts singing, and then the next section comes in singing "row row row your boat" as the other is at "gently down the stream". This is called singing "in the round".

 

I often come across counterpoint when running through scales on my guitar, trying to come up with a melody, or solo. Often I'll veer off from the scale on purpose, or more often than i like, make a mistake while playing the scale, and eureka, find a nice note that sounds wrong but fits but most of the time, only in a stacatto 32nd note, but throwing that one note into a scale and running it at the same time as the other (when recording obviously) makes for a fantastic minor variation.

 

I enjoy how tool uses counterpoint, but with rhythm mostly instead of notes.

 

Most of all Tchaikovsky. Oh <3. It is no secret I am obsessed with his work. He exploited counterpoint and used it at it's best. I love it, but it's not so strict and it's usually so sudden you can almost miss is. That's how I learned abotu it, asking my guitar teacher some odd years ago, "what do you call this, when this happens right here". And I got me some learnin'.

 

He was also a master at "Stretto" which to means "one voice coming in with material from another voice, before the other voice has finished". But that's a whole different topic.

 

A few small examples in the first movement of Souvenir de Florence

 

 

Tons in movement IV (final)

 

 

Such a beautiful and fierce piece of music!

 

A good search word is "Fugue" in reference to classical pieces. To familiarize more with the concept. A fugue by rule, has at least 3 independent voices, and are some of the best examples of counterpoint.

 

Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No. 5 movement I

Also here around the :24 mark. Another Fine example.

 

so is it only / mainly used by classical composers as the melodies are getting too complex for pop arrangements?

no way, it's used in pop and other types of music music quite often. Michael Jackson did it often. It's especially used in Jazz. I'll dig up some other examples. :)

If you've been making polyphonic music for more than 6 months, you've probably already unwittingly used counterpoint like... 50 times. Don't dwell on it, keep doing what you do. When you start feeling a little held back, learn intervals, chords and MAYBE scales. Keep doing you thing with that knowledge in mind. IF you start feeling not 100% again, it's probably other aspects (sound design, production, etc.).

Also, some people are terminally non-musical and no amount of music theory will ever help. Check to see if you've got an innate musical ear. There's programs on the net for that. If you're one of those people, go full-on Raster Noton, or just sample a lot and do beats, or do noise/ambient or something.

Counterpoint should be your last enterprise.

Is this an academic curiosity regarding counterpoint... Or so you want to really learn it?

If you start with baroque counterpoint... Understand that there are many rules, and after you follow them, you will have a sound that is hundreds of years old.

That's the thing about learning any type of musical theory... It's not a universal technique... Its a focus on how to achieve certain results from a certain style. If you are just curious about it, read up on it, and skim it over... But don't obsess over the rules. Again, you'll just end up sounding like Bach.

If you want to study later counterpoint techniques, go for it as well, but it may be harder to grasp if you don't understand earlier styles and how they work. And again, remember that the rules you are learning will just give you results of that style. So find a composer who captures the essense of what sound you like, and study their works, and the theory of their time in music history.

You could also skip all of that and just experiment with the concept, outside of theory. You already basically get it... It multiple melodic lines playing at the same time.

So go write a melody you like... Once that's done, open up another track, and start writing a melody on top of that one. Just listen. Do you like it? Good! You've just made counter point. Do it again... I'd you can get 3 lines that sound good together... Then you have a lot of thematic material to work with.

I just listen to the melody I'm playing and make changes accordingly.

  On 9/6/2010 at 9:40 PM, impakt said:

I just listen to the melody I'm playing and make changes accordingly.

whoever said bach two part inventions: yes!

whoever said you'll end up sounding like bach: no

anyway counterpoint can mean many different things depending on what you want to do with it. Contrast the first movement of bartok's music for strings percussion and celesta with... spem in alium or something.

I said that if you study baroque counterpoint, you'll sound like Bach (as an (obvious) example of a composer of that time): yes!

  On 9/8/2010 at 4:14 AM, Kcinsu said:

I said that if you study baroque counterpoint, you'll sound like Bach (as an (obvious) example of a composer of that time): yes!

Well you won't. You'll probably sound like Telemann or Handel if you're lucky.

i did a minor in music in teh uni. took four semesters of music theory. bach inventions as homework all the time past the first semester or two. at that point i was already doing dense harmonies on my computer, and so i tried to apply the theory i was hearing about. i found it seriously annoying -- way too slow and pedantic. i still do. it helps out here and there, though. most common example: i got all this chord, i want it to transition to that one, but there's that note repeating that bugs me because of how the synth patch sounds, how can i rearrange the chord to dodge the repeating note problem and still get what i want?

i can't fathom people doing proper bangers using counterpoint as the primary composition tool.

p.s. acid chord is comprised of a root, a third, and filth

  On 9/8/2010 at 12:38 PM, jim said:

  On 9/8/2010 at 4:14 AM, Kcinsu said:

I said that if you study baroque counterpoint, you'll sound like Bach (as an (obvious) example of a composer of that time): yes!

 

Well you won't. You'll probably sound like Telemann or Handel if you're lucky.

Don't be an ass. You fully understand the point I was trying to make.