Max 4 Live vs. Reaktor

I know comparing the two isn't exactly fair. They're sort of apples and... pears? Not quite oranges.

Their price range is different and one is optimized for Live while the other isn't. Other than those issues, does anyone here have an opinion on which is a better investment for making noise? The learning curve, on my end, for both applications is similar. I've learned some basics about Reaktor and basics about Max. However if one leads to faster results, I may choose that. Also, can Reaktor effect incoming MIDI data and send MIDI data out? Or is it only for audio processing? I know M4L can handle both.

I have both and I would say that Reaktor would be my choice for a few reasons.

1. Amazing, amazing synths (Oki Computer, Space Drone, Skrewell) that come included that are worth paying for even if you do not intend to use the modular aspect of Reaktor. Plus an evolving, consolidated, user library online with some great contributions by fellow users. Max comes with no such premade synths beyond simple tutorial patches to show you the implementation of certain tools. Also, user made Max patches are often highly idiosyncratic and require you to a jump through a few hoops (installing new externls, allocating files, etc) to set them up and running properly. Not fun.

2. Sound quality. Right away Reaktor can generate great sounding patches that don't require extensive study in the minutiae of DSP programming. As for Max; although I'm sure you can get create great sounds it will take much more effort for the sounds to be as gratifying (in my experience). I cannot say why Reaktor should sound any better, but it simply does and that goes a long way towards easily making instruments enjoyable.

3. Cost. Reaktor 5 will cost you roughly $400, while Max 5 is over $500 (possibly $595, I forget). In addition, if a main draw to Max is it's Max 4 Live implementation then keep in mind that it will be roughly $100 for the conversion, not including the fact that you must own a copy of Live 8.

4. Implementation. This depends on a few conditions. If you are not running Max For Live then Max is generally more of a pain to route into a DAW than Reaktor. Reaktor, on the other hand functions just like a plugin in a DAW. All you do is select Reaktor in your channel strip and within the window that pops up you open a patch just like any other file system. Max does not feature such relatively simple integration into any DAW (Live being the exception), which means that any manipulation of the program you would like to do (barring remote MIDI commands) will need to be done by looking at the Max window.

On the other hand there are several qualities about Max that I prefer.

1. Documentation. Max 5 has excellent, excellent documentation in the form of a series of well written and thoroughly explained tutorials. They assume a certain amount of familiarity with MIDI and basic signal processing, but it's hardly an obstacle to getting down to business if you're truly dedicated. It's just damn superior teaching. Reaktor on the other hand, does not have as quite a rich method for teaching you about it's operation. It does have a few tutorials, but they are somewhat obscured and not nearly as thorough.

2. Ergonomics. Reaktor is somewhat idiosyncratic in the way that modules can fit together and it's display of values while Max patches can be organized slightly better thanks to simple things like presentation mode or the bending the lines that illustrate module connections, so that they do not travel in a straight line, through other objects to reach their destination. It's something of a small point, but Max patches are generally more pleasing to look at and dissect.

^ Wallbird is pretty accurate with everything there, I own both as well and wouldn't dare try to summarize as well as he did, a few notes tho:

Reaktor 5 is a huge pain for specific things like FFT's, cc in/out, dynamically saving/using snapshots on the fly. Reaktor 5.5 solved much of this. As such I'd never recommend vanilla Reaktor 5.

I primarily use Max4Live to hack up my APC40. There would be no way for me to do this with Reaktor. If you plan on using Ableton primarily with some sort of controller, your best bet here is Max4live.

I personally find loading up reaktor, then loading up an ensemble and using it a lot more cumbersome then dragging a patch out of my Ableton Library.

Reaktors library is far more usable and extensive then what comes with Max4live by a long shot.

Reaktor has a zippy pitch shifting algorithm (which I sorta perfer) over Max's "turntable stop" esque pitch algorithm that I know some people perfer.

You will have a much easier time crashing Max then you will Reaktor.

if you buy Max 4 Live, do you get Live as part of the package? I'd go for Reaktor in any case. As stated above, amazing ensembles/synths/drum machines/effects

G2 engine

i prefer Reaktor, but max4live is very enticing. I think in maybe 5 years it could be superior to Reaktor , but this would only be if somehow the max4live user library covered MORE ground than the Reaktor user lib.

The jitter possibilities in max4live make it technically more powerful, but to be honest i've never been able to get any of my jitter patches working correctly in max4live, has anyone else has luck?

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2. Sound quality. Right away Reaktor can generate great sounding patches that don't require extensive study in the minutiae of DSP programming. As for Max; although I'm sure you can get create great sounds it will take much more effort for the sounds to be as gratifying (in my experience). I cannot say why Reaktor should sound any better, but it simply does and that goes a long way towards easily making instruments enjoyable.

pretty much the gospel truth right here, the only positive thing i will say about Msp's sound quality right out of the box is for things like sample position manipulation or stuttering/real-time cutups of samples the Msp default sound quality for this is better than Reaktor's basic capabilities. There are people who have made amazing granular and stuttering patches for Reaktor, but to make them sound 'seamless' and without clipping artifacts it's much harder to build in this reaktor than it would be in max/msp. For some reason msp has a 'smoother' built in algorithm for this. This is the only exception though, everything else in Reaktor sounds better to me.

Anyone here use MIDI capabilities much with either product? I have an APC40 myself and I wouldn't heavily customizing it's functionality.

if you want to have vast midi capabilities with little configuring Reaktor is probably a better choice, the APC40 is basically made for ableton live so you'll have the advantage of being able to switch between max4live & Reaktor easily, you can even use them both at once if you like.

edit:

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Also, can Reaktor effect incoming MIDI data and send MIDI data out?

yes, i've never run into a limitation with Reaktor's midi processing or generating capabilities

the nice thing about Reaktor is that it fits in more like any other VSt plugin as others have mentioned here, you can save and load presets or patches on it much easier than you can on max4live. I've had weird issues with max4live so far where if i click to unlock the patch it will erase all of my settings, some of this kind of stuff is annoying. Also the user library for it has basic building blocks for almost anything, the Max/msp way of doing this is to have tutorial help files with editable objects, you can literally rip pieces out of their help tutorials to try and build your own patches out of. The max4live user patch community is growing but it's maybe 1/20th as large as the Reaktor user library. edit2: in short i think Reaktor is a better investment because you aren't stuck in just one host program (abelton), it will work on any AU or VST capable program.

  On 11/17/2010 at 1:02 AM, Awepittance said:

The max4live user patch community is growing but it's maybe 1/20th as large as the Reaktor user library. edit2: in short i think Reaktor is a better investment because you aren't stuck in just one host program (abelton), it will work on any AU or VST capable program.

Okay. Cool. Yeah I spoke to a musician recently who said he prefers Reaktor to M4L. He mentioned the patch community. At one point in the conversation he made fun of Greenwood from Radiohead for being elitist and only using Max. I honestly thought Max might be more robust but I suppose there are more details to it. And since I got an old copy of Reaktor 2.0, I guess I'll just upgrade that.

Reaktor is for musicians.

Max/MSP is for programmers.

I use both and I see see myself as both, but i try to keep them independent of each other. If you just want to make cool music because you listened to squarepusher and thought "hey, my vst's aren't making me sound cool like that" then i'd go for Reaktor. If you are constantly annoyed by little details of your software and think you could make it better, maybe you want to think about max/MSP.

reaktor.

m4l, in my mind, is more for control, handling, and interfacing with live.

reaktor is more for synthesis, and making sounds.

g2 for the win.

  On 11/17/2010 at 1:42 AM, ryanmcallister said:

Reaktor is for musicians.

Max/MSP is for programmers.

 

I use both and I see see myself as both, but i try to keep them independent of each other. If you just want to make cool music because you listened to squarepusher and thought "hey, my vst's aren't making me sound cool like that" then i'd go for Reaktor. If you are constantly annoyed by little details of your software and think you could make it better, maybe you want to think about max/MSP.

Ah, sounds like a good description. I would also fall into both categories. That helps me as well. Thanks.

  On 11/17/2010 at 1:42 AM, ryanmcallister said:

Reaktor is for musicians.

Max/MSP is for programmers.

 

I use both and I see see myself as both, but i try to keep them independent of each other. If you just want to make cool music because you listened to squarepusher and thought "hey, my vst's aren't making me sound cool like that" then i'd go for Reaktor. If you are constantly annoyed by little details of your software and think you could make it better, maybe you want to think about max/MSP.

pretty much this.

i think it has a lot to do with the climate of the max/msp community. It always has been a lot more guarded about powerful patches in general. Only in the past 4 years have i seen Cycling 74 making overt gestures to try and tap into the Reaktor side of the music making market. At this point in the Reaktor user library, it has countless patches that would make any normal person think 'why would someone give this away for free?'. In the max/msp community we have a lot more secret weapons, occasionally someone will put out an insane music making patch like Twerk or Autechre, but those are rare occurrences. Most max/msp patches previous to max4live that were shared online were pluggo conversions, stand alone self executables that were compiled so you couldn't take a look at the code.

that's fair enough I say. If cycling 74 really wanted to tap into the open sharing of patches and making building blocks for community use, they should have actively done it themselves... not rely on the user base to do it for them.

that said, I've never been a part of their community, so maybe I am totally off the mark... but from how you phrased it, it sounds like cycling didn't really make much effort to make the community more accessible.

Interesting thread, I've been a Reaktor user for years and at various times I've considered trying out Max (or more recently M4L). From the discussion I think I don't need to as I'm getting all I need from Reaktor. As far as I'm concerned it's been the single most inspiring piece of music making stuff I've ever used.

So, yeah, thanks for the insight.

Just wanted to point out that Max4Live is on sale atm. Not a bad deal.

http://www.ableton.com/pages/2010/get_in_tune_with_winter?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=tile_u&utm_campaign=get-in-tune-with-winter