Best midi controller/sequencer for Max4live or Max/MSP?

Hello friends,

I'm pretty new in world of music production seeing as I've only been doing it for about a year and recently I have been pretty bored and stuck in my musical endeavors. I absolutely love sound design and it seems to be my strong point. However, after I'm done making my sounds, I can't really find an interesting way to make them into a song. I use Ableton, and it can become pretty tedious and dull just copying/pasting clips into the arrangement view to hopefully make something happen. I've noticed that I lack creativity in making parameter envelopes that bring subtle details to songs and was hoping I could find this creativity through Max for Live. I've been looking around for controllers that could help me express myself but I'm at a loss.

The Novation Remote Zero SL is pretty fucking awesome looking but this is just the noob in me ogling over delicious hardware. I know that the Akai APC series was MADE for Ableton, but I don't want to limit myself to Ableton products, unless it really is the best option. Right now, I'm only running Ableton on a three and a half year old Macbook =(. As soon as I save up enough money I will probably be switching to a Sony VAIO with the best possible processor and most amount of RAM I can get. Then comes the final process of figuring out Max/MSP while trying to not pull my hair out out of frustration haha.

Anyways... Any helpful comments and suggestions that could lead me in the right direction would be much appreciated!

here's an unlikely suggestion: Yamaha RM1x

it sounds like you'll mainly want to do triggering/sequencing sound with your controller. the rm1x has surprisingly complex midi-patterning features, as well as a quite solid build-quality (nice heavy metal casing) and some assignable knobs/buttons. it is a bit archaic in ways (it's old), but if you're a bit savvy with MIDI as well as with Max you'll have a very flexible controller for 200$ or so.

faderfox also makes some rather obscure unit that is supposed to work specifically well with Ableton (altho i have never used them for Ableton personally). quite good build quality & price as well. more info: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct10/articles/faderfox.htm

the choice comes down to what type of interface you personally like working with, which is something you'll find out in time by trying out different types.

ofcourse there's all kinds of stuff out there: knobs (small ones, big ones, jogwheel ones), (motorized) sliders, buttons/toggles (in a grid, in a step-sequence, or in a circle), joysticks/trakballs, pressure sensors, optical sensors, ribbons, etc. just try to get a feel for what type of stuff you like working with.

working with an OSC controller instead of with a MIDI-based one is another option that you can easily explore with Max, which can open up a lot of new possibilities (Oh the possibilities!! *beams*).

edit:added link

hey man, welcome to the forum!

perhaps going a little bit off topic, but it does sound a little like you should reconsider your work processes. any piece of sound design is only as good as how well it can be contextualised, as in, how well easily it can be utilised into a track (or whatever you're using it for)

I get exactly the same conundrum sometimes. I'll sit in night long sessions, making loads of interesting weird sounds, but when I sit down the next morning and try to work them into some sort of track it feels clumsy and awkward. what I found can help a lot is, with certain types of sounds it is better to integrate both processes together. Sound design and composition at the same time. You'll be more likely to make some sounds that work well in the track you are writing.

this might also help you in another way. again, it's great fun to get really crazy with processing a sound, start in one program, bounce it out, open it in something else, DSP the fuck out of it, render, open in something else etc etc. But should bare in mind that at the end of all that work, you'll be left with just a one hit sample. Great on it's own, but relatively inflexible once you try to use it in a track. If you're doing some parts of sound design online within your sequencer, you've made available all the automation and performance options you'll need to give it some life. I'd say this is especially useful with bass parts, pads, ambient sounds etc.

Drum and percussion sounds are a bit different, I find it easier to build up a big library of sounds, load them into a sampler and go from there, but that's just my preference.

Anyways, just a suggestion, sorry if it's way off track, just sounded like it might help from what you've written :)

Regarding controllers.. the Akai APC range are really nicely built, solid feeling controllers. But I have a bit of a grudge against them. They are very clearly designed with nothing but Ableton in mind. They are certainly very good when used for what they are designed for, but incredibly inflexible for almost anything else. There is no simple way of reassigning midi CC numbers and channels, so you are more or less bound to how Akai have set them up. Each column is on a separate midi channel, and you're stuck like that. There are ways to remap them, python scripts, or midi reassignment in Max or Reaktor, but it's a long and frustrating process. IMO it's kinda self defeating for a midi controller to be so awkward to reassign. Brilliant for Ableton, terrible for most everything else.

the Novation stuff looks also pretty good, I have no experience with the Launch pad, but I have heard lots of good things. Similar function to the APC but a little more open and flexible. are you certain that a pad style controller is what you're after?

I think figure out exactly what you'd want to use the controller for, and go from there. if it's simply triggering clips then a pad surface is probably ideal, but it won't allow you too much control over parameter tweaking. Something with rotary controls is cool for parameter tweaking, and fine adjustments, but not so well suited for quick movements, and Faders are great for quick adjustments but a little less ideal for fine tuning stuff..

perhaps you should look at getting a controller that offers a bit of everything. there are some novation ones that have faders, pots, pads, keyboard all on one. Not very expensive either. If nothing else it will he'lp you to figure out what controller features you like best and use the most. It would be unfortunate if you got yourself something like a launchpad only to find that pad interfaces don't really allow you to do what you had hoped.

Like what lep has said really, try as many different things as you can. see if you can borrow stuff from mates for a couple days, or just ask to demo stuff in a shop. Hopefully it'll give you a clearer idea of what you're after.

Edit: since lep has mentioned osc, just thought I'd chip in.. for the last 10 months or so I've been using an IPad as my main controller for playing live. using touch osc into Reaktor. quite interesting that although it mimics things like faders, pots an so on, it really does not have the same physical interaction. However, for step sequencing, and pad style triggering it's brilliant. For adjusting faders and such it's a little bit fiddly, pretty different from anything else, but again it's what you enjoy the most. Just thought I'd mention it though since IPads aren't soo much more than a middle of the road midi controller and certainly a different way of controlling stuff, and I think people tend to forget that.

  On 7/17/2011 at 6:09 PM, TechDiff said:

Edit: since lep has mentioned osc, just thought I'd chip in.. for the last 10 months or so I've been using an IPad as my main controller for playing live. using touch osc into Reaktor. quite interesting that although it mimics things like faders, pots an so on, it really does not have the same physical interaction. However, for step sequencing, and pad style triggering it's brilliant. For adjusting faders and such it's a little bit fiddly, pretty different from anything else, but again it's what you enjoy the most. Just thought I'd mention it though since IPads aren't soo much more than a middle of the road midi controller and certainly a different way of controlling stuff, and I think people tend to forget that.

kewl, i'd like to have a large touchscreen like that, just as a big classic "x-y" pad--is it pressure sensitive?

pff there is so many bitchen old obscure gear that you can use for controlling & sequencing. especially if you're getting into Max, you can hook a lot of stuff together. uhh here's a nice one, patchable analog thing full of pattern-based features, use it with a cv-2-midi (or cv-2-osc) unit and plug it into your computer

Welcome to watmm dude.

I have a Novation Remote SL-25 (same as the zero but with keys) and I love the shit out of it. Automap ableton template is very nice. Basically, the right half of the Remote is the mixer + Transport, and the left half (knobs) auto-assigns 8 parameters to whatever ableton device you've selected (for instance, in Analog, it divides up parameters into 8 pages or something like that. Osc 1 parameters, Osc 2, Filter/filter envelope, LFO, amp etc). And you can also very easily set up macros with drum racks and instrument racks, which is how i do everything. I agree with TechDiff. I prefer to compose and design sounds at the same time. For instance the exact rate and feel of a long pad envelope or its modulations can heavily influence the entire track, so just purely designing some sounds and then trying to compose after the fact doesnt seem to work too well for me (plus my attention changes so quick I have to make a whole track / all its sounds in one sitting, or I lose interest). I haven't tried Max so I can't say how the Remote works with it, though I'm sure max for live integrates similarly to instrument rack macros. On top of that you can still just manually map midi controls in live so thats always fine (by the way, the lower 8 knobs, the finite ones, do not automap to anything, so I use those for other controls). Another thing about the Novation - get the mark 1, not mark 2. The mark 2 has purdy LEDs and touch controls but one LCD and costs $100 more. Novation will tell you the one less LCD is to "streamline" but trust me it's nicer having both.

If you're still shopping for other controllers check out Livid Instruments. They make nice APC-40/Monome style toys. I'm sure the community has cooked up some max templates.

What are some of your favorite tracks or producers, and what kind of music do you like to make?

Another thing I would recommend, if youre mentally blocked with ableton, is to just try something that you tihnk is unappealing, like live-recording a jam in the session view to sequence instead of copy-pasting. You'll be surprised at the results.

If that doesnt work, try a different daw. I love FL studio because I just do everything with a mouse. It's the ultimate mouse DAW. Smoothest midi sequencing ever. I get inspired just sequencing in FL. In ableton i tend to write tracks that are collections of brief ideas whereas FL tends to be a little less restrained. It's easier to write 16-bar batshit crazy lead melodies that tell really long stories when you're sitting there drawing sequences with your mouse.

Alternatively put some limits on yourself like "synthesize all sounds" (no drum samples for instance) or "no reverb or delay in this track". Sometimes you jsut gotta get out of your old habits.

Thanks for the great replies guys. After looking through your comments I'm heading in a better direction. I'm probably going to go with the novation launchpad for ableton because it's only 150$ on amazon -drool-, and it takes care of Ableton sequencing perfectly. The novation remote Sl zero is still looking delicious, but i'm worried that it won't be able to be mapped to max/msp patches in fine detail. Should I go with something that has a fuckload of knobs and sliders to edit envelope parameters in real time? Or should I edit the parameters with mousing and then use some complex midi sequencing with more pads?

I'll be trying to write experimental tracks that are beat heavy and filled with field recordings processed via max/msp. My main influences, if you couldn't tell by the previous sentence, are Booth/Brown(Gescom as well), Aleksi Perala, Aaron Funk, Richard James, and more artists from Skam, Warp, Rephlex, etc.

wow, 150 for a launchpad is pretty cool! as for assigning the novation remote to max patches. I would have thought that it would be as straight forward as anything else. It's just assigning an encoder to a software parameter, midi is midi... The novation stuff also seems to come with Template editors which would allow you to create more complex set ups, split the surface across several midi channels for example, allowing you to control several different instruments simultaneously. either one looks like a good choice! (slightly tempted by the zero remote myself now!)

what you said about mouse editing or live parameter tweaking is really up to personal preference. For me, I prefer to do it all by mouse as I think it's far more accurate, but that said I know pleanty of people who record their midi automation from a control surface, and do fine tweaking later on with a mouse. Whatever gets the job done really.

heheh, your influences sound like most people on this forum! you got any music online anywhere? would be cool to hear some!

There is also Touchable for the iPad, which basically lets you control the most important aspects of live... clip triggering, levels, FX, keyboard and drumpads. its not perfect, but it's damn fine.

i'd use it a lot more, but I do like feeling buttons under my fingers, so I use the launchpad and the apc40 more... but adding it to the setup just gives me more options!

touchable DROOOL

ipad $500 :(

  On 7/19/2011 at 1:48 AM, iamabe said:

ipad $500 :(

Well.. They're kinda bit expensive, but if you get the most from them, it's worth every penny. use mine for all Internet stuff more or less (uploading &downloading are the exceptions) it's my midi controller, my phone (skype), TV, and thats before you think about all the awesome apps. Korg iMS20 is fkn amazing, as are a bunch of other synth apps. That combined with line6 midi mobilizer makes a cool external sound module :)

have not tried Touchable, since it's exclusively designed for a program I don't use. Does look very fkn impressive though. there's quite a few cool music remote apps about now. saw one, can't remember who made it now... was a remote interface for large live mixing desk setups. all sorts of amazing monitoring functions, and full control over all channels and busses remotely. means the sound engineer can actually work the desk from all around the venue. brilliant :)

the drawback is, as someone mentioned, the lack of physical response. it's great to have a real fader to swing on sometimes. But for triggering/xy control etc theyre brilliant. Not to mention graphical feedback of control states etc.