Are jobs obsolete?

  Quote

I am afraid to even ask this, but since when is unemployment really a problem? I understand we all want paychecks -- or at least money. We want food, shelter, clothing, and all the things that money buys us. But do we all really want jobs?

 

We're living in an economy where productivity is no longer the goal, employment is. That's because, on a very fundamental level, we have pretty much everything we need. America is productive enough that it could probably shelter, feed, educate, and even provide health care for its entire population with just a fraction of us actually working.

http://edition.cnn.c...lete/index.html

wonder if this the reason why I spend most of the day doing nothing and no one seems to care

mine is. i was made redundant the other day.

Yes I've often wondered this. I don't really know how it would work, I couldn't follow this article on the last few paragraphs.

I think the concept of having the majority of the population with nothing to do all day is quite scary though, we'd all end up fucking our sisters in lifts and shooting up shopping centres. Personally I feel the need to have a job anyway to keep some sense of achievement or something, but I've probably just been brought up with that belief. Some sort of Brave New World type of drug and sex regimen would have to be encouraged to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:41 PM, BCM said:

mine is. i was made redundant the other day.

bummero. did you get a nice fat pay off?

I loved the Kino's Journey episode in which there was a city that had automated all production so they didn't have to work. To maintain a competitive society they spent their lives doing useless, mundane work. I often feel like I live in such a world. I don't understand how the shit I do can have the value it does. Ofcourse in our case, low-wage countries and uneducated people are doing our dirty/hard work, not machines.

Vonnegut's Player Piano is sort of about this scenario

Technological unemployment is a reality and our current economic system is too outdated to keep up with such changes. People who deny this are the equivelant of the religious minded declaring the Earth is flat.

I once read that Roosevelt realised the benefits for society regarding machine automation and wanted to have working days shorter for everyone so people had more leisure time without pay necessarily being affected significantly. Why did this train of thought stop, I wonder?

it didn't stop, it's just that other people realized if you kept pushing people just as hard as before, you'd make more profit than the next guy. It's always the aggressive, ambitious folks who screw it up for the lazy ones

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:44 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

Yes I've often wondered this. I don't really know how it would work, I couldn't follow this article on the last few paragraphs.

 

I think the concept of having the majority of the population with nothing to do all day is quite scary though, we'd all end up fucking our sisters in lifts and shooting up shopping centres. Personally I feel the need to have a job anyway to keep some sense of achievement or something, but I've probably just been brought up with that belief. Some sort of Brave New World type of drug and sex regimen would have to be encouraged to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

With so much free time available you'll get to pursue personal interests/socialising/family/friends - ask yourself what would you do now if someone can gave you £10 million? And imagine living like a millionaire knowing income inequality has been squashed and stress becomes minimised in society? That is a world I would love to see.

Of course with so much free time, people would want to give back to society as society already gives them so much. It doesn't just depend on a change in minimising mundane repetitive/pointless work, it also depends on how well we can adjust our education systems to teach critical thinking skills/empathy etc. to bring about a society where so-called 'laziness' is a myth.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:09 PM, Bread said:

Technological unemployment is a reality and our current economic system is too outdated to keep up with such changes. People who deny this are the equivelant of the religious minded declaring the Earth is flat.

 

I once read that Roosevelt realised the benefits for society regarding machine automation and wanted to have working days shorter for everyone so people had more leisure time without pay necessarily being affected significantly. Why did this train of thought stop, I wonder?

I knew you'd be all over this like flour on a sourdough.

The guy raises some interesting points, but he paints a rosy view of history. Yeah in the late middle ages, everyone worked for themselves, but it was terribly labour intensive, kids didn't go to schools, and people died young. Land ownership (so that you can produce for your family) was tied into a bunch of different regulatory devices.

When you take away people's motive to improve themselves, innovation tends to slow down dramatically. This notion that we can all be creative producers is a foolish fantasy.

Now, I don't think our current economic system is perfect, far from it, but it's certainly a better option than simply giving everyone whatever they want.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:16 PM, Bread said:

 

Of course with so much free time, people would want to give back to society as society already gives them so much. It doesn't just depend on a change in minimising mundane repetitive/pointless work, it also depends on how well we can adjust our education systems to teach critical thinking skills/empathy etc. to bring about a society where so-called 'laziness' is a myth.

lol no.

Also - without jobs, who's gonna teach the critical thinking skills?

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:44 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

Man that sounds wonderful

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

When you take away people's motive to improve themselves, innovation tends to slow down dramatically.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

This notion that we can all be creative producers is a foolish fantasy.

No one wants to take away incentives. For example, people would work four hours a day but everyone gets paid enough money to cover for food / rent. You can do with your own free time whatever you want. Do you want to read books? Create music? Play sports? Lurk in Internet message boards? Start your own business so you make more money and travel the world? Get a degree in continental philosophy just for the kicks? It's all good.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Now, I don't think our current economic system is perfect, far from it, but it's certainly a better option than simply giving everyone whatever they want.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Also - without jobs, who's gonna teach the critical thinking skills?

Wrong again. You still have to work and no one is getting anything for free. It's just a less insane way of approaching things. Right now we have so many drones doing nothing in corporate offices and an army of unemployed people that can't even afford food and a decent place to live. Don't panic! There will still be schools, companies, universities, etc. It's just that everyone gets a job + free time, instead of the current model where there is an obscenely rich class that does nothing + overworked elite + lots of poor people with no jobs. Bertrand Russell has a very cool essay about this.

read this earlier today. very interesting theory. with the population rising out of control and jobs disappearing its really the only solution

  On 9/8/2011 at 7:21 PM, m u st co n t r ol t h o 4 said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

When you take away people's motive to improve themselves, innovation tends to slow down dramatically.

 

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

This notion that we can all be creative producers is a foolish fantasy.

 

No one wants to take away incentives. For example, people would work four hours a day but everyone gets paid enough money to cover for food / rent. You can do with your own free time whatever you want. Do you want to read books? Create music? Play sports? Lurk in Internet message boards? Start your own business so you make more money and travel the world? Get a degree in continental philosophy just for the kicks? It's all good.

 

 

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Now, I don't think our current economic system is perfect, far from it, but it's certainly a better option than simply giving everyone whatever they want.

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Also - without jobs, who's gonna teach the critical thinking skills?

 

 

Wrong again. You still have to work and no one is getting anything for free. It's just a less insane way of approaching things. Right now we have so many drones doing nothing in corporate offices and an army of unemployed people that can't even afford food and a decent place to live. Don't panic! There will still be schools, companies, universities, etc. It's just that everyone gets a job + free time, instead of the current model where there is an obscenely rich class that does nothing + overworked elite + lots of poor people with no jobs. Bertrand Russell has a very cool essay about this.

how do the obscenely rich feel about bertrand russell's essay?

well, they spend a lot of money trying to convince everyone that poor people are lazy, stupid, always in the brink of becoming criminals and should work 60 hour weeks, at the very least.

my point was the "there is enough for everyone" attitude tends to get flattened by those with the "i want to own it all" attitude.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:09 PM, Bread said:

Technological unemployment is a reality and our current economic system is too outdated to keep up with such changes. People who deny this are the equivelant of the religious minded declaring the Earth is flat.

 

I once read that Roosevelt realised the benefits for society regarding machine automation and wanted to have working days shorter for everyone so people had more leisure time without pay necessarily being affected significantly. Why did this train of thought stop, I wonder?

 

I knew you'd be all over this like flour on a sourdough.

 

When you take away people's motive to improve themselves, innovation tends to slow down dramatically. This notion that we can all be creative producers is a foolish fantasy.

Now, I don't think our current economic system is perfect, far from it, but it's certainly a better option than simply giving everyone whatever they want.

You were born a curious human being - it's an inherent fact of our nature - have you ever watched the behaviour of young children or even babies? Therefore it takes for a good education system to carry on nurturing this curiosity to ensure a sustainable, productive and technologically innovative society is achieved and is forever emerging new ideas.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:16 PM, Bread said:

 

Of course with so much free time, people would want to give back to society as society already gives them so much. It doesn't just depend on a change in minimising mundane repetitive/pointless work, it also depends on how well we can adjust our education systems to teach critical thinking skills/empathy etc. to bring about a society where so-called 'laziness' is a myth.

 

lol no.

Also - without jobs, who's gonna teach the critical thinking skills?

I'm of course deriving knowledge from a resource based, economic model. What makes you think there will be a short supply of people who facilitate with teaching? Can we not have teaching automated? For instance, the internet could be a fine, interactive tool for partial learning (I'm not saying a child should sit in front of a computer all day) - but it could aid in some of the teaching in a very interesting and fun way which a human teacher couldn't possibly match.

You aren't really thinking about this with an innovative mind here chengod... There are so many possibilities we are yet to explore.

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:44 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

Yes I've often wondered this. I don't really know how it would work, I couldn't follow this article on the last few paragraphs.

 

I think the concept of having the majority of the population with nothing to do all day is quite scary though, we'd all end up fucking our sisters in lifts and shooting up shopping centres. Personally I feel the need to have a job anyway to keep some sense of achievement or something, but I've probably just been brought up with that belief. Some sort of Brave New World type of drug and sex regimen would have to be encouraged to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

lol, do you not have any 'hobbies' or anything you really like to do in your spare time when you're not working, (besides wanking)?

jesus, i hardly ever find myself bored or with nothing to do these days. but when i was a kid/teenager, yeah... bored quite a lot of the time. but there's not enough hours in the day anymore to do all the things i want to do now... days go WAY too quickly for me!

  On 9/8/2011 at 7:40 PM, hahathhat said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 7:21 PM, m u st co n t r ol t h o 4 said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

When you take away people's motive to improve themselves, innovation tends to slow down dramatically.

 

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

This notion that we can all be creative producers is a foolish fantasy.

 

No one wants to take away incentives. For example, people would work four hours a day but everyone gets paid enough money to cover for food / rent. You can do with your own free time whatever you want. Do you want to read books? Create music? Play sports? Lurk in Internet message boards? Start your own business so you make more money and travel the world? Get a degree in continental philosophy just for the kicks? It's all good.

 

 

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Now, I don't think our current economic system is perfect, far from it, but it's certainly a better option than simply giving everyone whatever they want.

 

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:22 PM, chenGOD said:

Also - without jobs, who's gonna teach the critical thinking skills?

 

 

Wrong again. You still have to work and no one is getting anything for free. It's just a less insane way of approaching things. Right now we have so many drones doing nothing in corporate offices and an army of unemployed people that can't even afford food and a decent place to live. Don't panic! There will still be schools, companies, universities, etc. It's just that everyone gets a job + free time, instead of the current model where there is an obscenely rich class that does nothing + overworked elite + lots of poor people with no jobs. Bertrand Russell has a very cool essay about this.

 

how do the obscenely rich feel about bertrand russell's essay?

which essay are you referring to? Id like to read it. Russell is incredibly insightful and I think a liberal in the best sense of the word, surprised to hear him claim this.

This is incredibly idealistic of me, but if there were some situation in which if I worked I helped ensure a decent standard of living for all, I would gladly do it without for a second being angry at the "leeches" of society...but as we know this is not realistically possible.

Its funny though, if hard-line communist thinkers actually meant what they said and acted righteously according to their word, who knows?

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:09 PM, Bread said:

Technological unemployment is a reality and our current economic system is too outdated to keep up with such changes. People who deny this are the equivelant of the religious minded declaring the Earth is flat.

 

I once read that Roosevelt realised the benefits for society regarding machine automation and wanted to have working days shorter for everyone so people had more leisure time without pay necessarily being affected significantly. Why did this train of thought stop, I wonder?

because 'they' don't want people sitting around thinking about things too much or talking and having fun... and leading happy, fulfilling, healthy lives. 'they' literally want to work us all to death. s'all about control... *exhales huge bong ripp*

  On 9/8/2011 at 9:43 PM, sirch said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:44 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

Yes I've often wondered this. I don't really know how it would work, I couldn't follow this article on the last few paragraphs.

 

I think the concept of having the majority of the population with nothing to do all day is quite scary though, we'd all end up fucking our sisters in lifts and shooting up shopping centres. Personally I feel the need to have a job anyway to keep some sense of achievement or something, but I've probably just been brought up with that belief. Some sort of Brave New World type of drug and sex regimen would have to be encouraged to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

 

lol, do you not have any 'hobbies' or anything you really like to do in your spare time when you're not working, (besides wanking)?

jesus, i hardly ever find myself bored or with nothing to do these days. but when i was a kid/teenager, yeah... bored quite a lot of the time. but there's not enough hours in the day anymore to do all the things i want to do now... days go WAY too quickly for me!

good point. free time=increased creative output/innovation

This is where I have to come into conflict with chen (though I generally agree with his analysis).

The creation of the printing press had an immense effect on European society, not just because it was easier to manufacture, but because the ability to read and write a response was not only limited to religious bastions of knowledge (ie. the monasteries).

Automation is scary because, although we understand that freeing up time for the working/lower class has an IMMENSE effect on the way our societies operate, imagine what could be possible with the COMPLETE eradication of work altogether. I'd like to think that would be good, but again, this can lead to violence as much as it can lead to innovation.

I am honestly stumped on what side of the issue to take here, quite honestly. Its completely uncharted territory.

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:16 PM, Bread said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 4:44 PM, Coalbucket PI said:

Yes I've often wondered this. I don't really know how it would work, I couldn't follow this article on the last few paragraphs.

 

I think the concept of having the majority of the population with nothing to do all day is quite scary though, we'd all end up fucking our sisters in lifts and shooting up shopping centres. Personally I feel the need to have a job anyway to keep some sense of achievement or something, but I've probably just been brought up with that belief. Some sort of Brave New World type of drug and sex regimen would have to be encouraged to stop everyone wanking themselves into schizophrenia.

With so much free time available you'll get to pursue personal interests/socialising/family/friends - ask yourself what would you do now if someone can gave you £10 million? And imagine living like a millionaire knowing income inequality has been squashed and stress becomes minimised in society? That is a world I would love to see.

 

Of course with so much free time, people would want to give back to society as society already gives them so much. It doesn't just depend on a change in minimising mundane repetitive/pointless work, it also depends on how well we can adjust our education systems to teach critical thinking skills/empathy etc. to bring about a society where so-called 'laziness' is a myth.

this.

Doesn't matter whether you are favour of the economic system we have now or not. The fact is that isn't going to hold up forever. Drastic changes will need to be made as automation expands.

  On 9/8/2011 at 9:48 PM, sirch said:

  On 9/8/2011 at 6:09 PM, Bread said:

Technological unemployment is a reality and our current economic system is too outdated to keep up with such changes. People who deny this are the equivelant of the religious minded declaring the Earth is flat.

 

I once read that Roosevelt realised the benefits for society regarding machine automation and wanted to have working days shorter for everyone so people had more leisure time without pay necessarily being affected significantly. Why did this train of thought stop, I wonder?

 

because 'they' don't want people sitting around thinking about things too much or talking and having fun... and leading happy, fulfilling, healthy lives. 'they' literally want to work us all to death. s'all about control... *exhales huge bong ripp*

Bong aside, you make a relevant point, although I would argue that again, this is uncharted territory. Theorists like Hobbes, Machiavelli, and Metternich could never properly diagnose a society in which there is NO work whatsoever. They were preventing the violence that came with complete upheaval, overthrow of old and outdated systems vs. gradual dissolution because, although work and the production of labor was very, very inequitable...society was still reliant on the ability to produce using human labor.

Part of me also surmises that this might be the most opportune time to create a Platonian utopia, in that the most naturally talented will use their free time the most creatively and propel innovation, to such a point that societies' increasing benefits from their service may result in somewhat of a strange benevolent dictatorship.

This is of course all hearsay and theoretical, just throwin it out there.