Russiaл football

So Zenit spent 86 million pund on Hulk and Alex Witsel on the last days of the transfer window. And they already have players like Denisov, Danny, Criscito, Bruno Alves, Kerzhakov, Lombaerts etc.

They have the 12th most expensive squad in Champions League just behind Dortmund and AC Milan. And they are infront of teams like Valencia and FC Porto. So they have pretty good squad.

And of course Anzhi has brought in players like Eto'o, Samba, Zhirkov, Lassana Diarra in the last couple of season.

CSKA Moscow, Spartak Moscow Rubin Kazan, Lokomotiv Moscow, Dinamo Moscow are also all very descent teams.

And with the World Cup heading to Russia in 2018, there will be new huge stadiums in the league. You have to think that Russian football is on the rise?

There is no real system under this rise, just investing of a lot of money into foreign players and coaches. Very poor stadiums, low attendance everywhere, no participation in major youth competitions, no economic balance (small teams just disappear), no TV or ticket revenue etc. If they'll just build new stadiums in some places, problems would not be solved. For now it's rising but not for long if they don't change the way things work.

It does seem that Russian teams will have a big impact on the CL in the next couple of years. As Amen Lare points out, not sure how it will translate into long-term success. There are still plenty of reasons why Russia won't attract the very best players, even if they can throw lots of cash around.

two words: natural gas

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

That's not the case, actually. I follow Russian league results weekly and it's currently as competitive as english premier league, no matter how poor some clubs are. Zenit is slightly higher than else last couple of years, but results are unpredictable every time. It helps that out of 16 teams more than a half have good financing. And even then, rich Dinamo Moscow team is the last place now, it's all very close.

  On 9/13/2012 at 9:05 PM, Amen Lare said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

That's not the case, actually. I follow Russian league results weekly and it's currently as competitive as english premier league, no matter how poor some clubs are. Zenit is slightly higher than else last couple of years, but results are unpredictable every time. It helps that out of 16 teams more than a half have good financing. And even then, rich Dinamo Moscow team is the last place now, it's all very close.

So it's fair to assume that the money is being poorly invested and managed, since teams with star players and huge transfer budgets are doing worse and/or competing neck to neck with teams with far worse conditions? I've never really watched any russian domestic league games, so correct me if this assumption is wrong.

I think that says something about the people who are managing, coaching and directing the rich football clubs in Russia. There's a huge difference in quality between a mid level russian club (like Amkar, Krasnodar or Alania) and mid level club in Spain (like Atletic Bilbao) or England (like Everton). If a club with a €100M or €50M transfer budget has to play hard to get a win over a squad that has the budget of a division 1 team, surely there's something wrong with the way it's being run. They'd need to step up their consistency and competitiveness big time if they want to mount a serious CL run.

  On 9/13/2012 at 9:47 PM, kokeboka said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 9:05 PM, Amen Lare said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

That's not the case, actually. I follow Russian league results weekly and it's currently as competitive as english premier league, no matter how poor some clubs are. Zenit is slightly higher than else last couple of years, but results are unpredictable every time. It helps that out of 16 teams more than a half have good financing. And even then, rich Dinamo Moscow team is the last place now, it's all very close.

 

So it's fair to assume that the money is being poorly invested and managed, since teams with star players and huge transfer budgets are doing worse and/or competing neck to neck with teams with far worse conditions? I've never really watched any russian domestic league games, so correct me if this assumption is wrong.

 

I think that says something about the people who are managing, coaching and directing the rich football clubs in Russia. There's a huge difference in quality between a mid level russian club (like Amkar, Krasnodar or Alania) and mid level club in Spain (like Atletic Bilbao) or England (like Everton). If a club with a €100M or €50M transfer budget has to play hard to get a win over a squad that has the budget of a division 1 team, surely there's something wrong with the way it's being run. They'd need to step up their consistency and competitiveness big time if they want to mount a serious CL run.

Yeah, i guess it's fair assumption, it's partly my point of view too. Though neck to neck table situation is a new thing. When i wrote good financing for most clubs i meant very good financing for most and good for others, adding a couple of teams with no money who are outsiders. Some of those are smart investors, some aren't. Often troubles follow those who are still managed by state structures, like struggling Dinamo Moscow is run by people associated with Ministry of Interior. Rubin depends on governor of Tatarstan republic.

At the same time i don't think that national level of Athletic Bilbao and Everton equals to what is Amkar or Krasnodar in Russia. The more actual comparison is, say, Lokomotiv Moscow (they played against Athletic in last year's Europa League, Athletic won by little, then wiped Man United out). There is not much difference in quality between them.

That's not about poor managing of investments, but more about priority of short-term vision and lack of strategic moves.

Btw, here is what Hulk and Witsel debut was like.

Zenit played at home vs. Terek, club from Chechnya, former war zone financially supported by government in order to control military power.

Result is 0:2, first Terek goal was by other debutant Ailton (ex-APOEL Cyprus)

http://youtu.be/WYQdaEVfswE

lol that was some terrible defending.

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

 

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

 

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

Is it just me or has the Russian national team produced some better players over the last ten year? Players like Dzagoev, Akinfeev, Arshavin (in his prime, he's shit now obviously) and Denisov. I don't remember they had players of that quality ten years ago.

I don't think that just because the league gets some high quality foreign players, will make russian players weaker. I think it's quite the opposite to be honest. A better league breeds better players. As long as the foreign players are not the majority and they are of high quality.

  On 9/14/2012 at 11:44 PM, chenGOD said:

lol that was some terrible defending.

yeah, was gonna say, thought I was in the rofl thread for a minute...

  On 9/15/2012 at 12:59 PM, Npoess said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

 

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

 

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

Is it just me or has the Russian national team produced some better players over the last ten year? Players like Dzagoev, Akinfeev, Arshavin (in his prime, he's shit now obviously) and Denisov. I don't remember they had players of that quality teen years ago.

 

I don't think that just because the league gets some high quality foreign players, will make russian players weaker. I think it's quite the opposite to be honest. A better league breeds better players. As long as the foreign players are not the majority and they are of high quality.

I believe they always had quality players. It goes to as far as Soviet times when certain coaches used advanced methods, preceeding stuff like total football of Michels & Cruyff, and had players who were awarded Ballon d'Or for best player in Europe. When USSR collapsed it took a while for russian and ukrainian leagues to awake and build something again.

Foreign players can't be a majority for now, because there is a limit for them - not more than 6-7 (changes with time) on a field. Strangely it still hurts russian players but in other way, as they cost much more than in usual circumstances and could relax for their place in starting eleven.

  On 9/14/2012 at 11:44 PM, chenGOD said:

lol that was some terrible defending.

In defense of these guys i can say that they are all just arrived from their national teams and it was the end of the game when Zenit went all for win, exhausted and totally not expecting shit like that to happen in counter-attack. This is Denisov (1st choice DM of Russia), Lombaerts (sit on the bench under Vermaelen in Belgium) and Bruno Alves (starting centreback for Portugal).

  On 9/15/2012 at 1:58 PM, Amen Lare said:

  On 9/15/2012 at 12:59 PM, Npoess said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

 

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

 

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

Is it just me or has the Russian national team produced some better players over the last ten year? Players like Dzagoev, Akinfeev, Arshavin (in his prime, he's shit now obviously) and Denisov. I don't remember they had players of that quality teen years ago.

 

I don't think that just because the league gets some high quality foreign players, will make russian players weaker. I think it's quite the opposite to be honest. A better league breeds better players. As long as the foreign players are not the majority and they are of high quality.

 

I believe they always had quality players. It goes to as far as Soviet times when certain coaches used advanced methods, preceeding stuff like total football of Michels & Cruyff, and had players who were awarded Ballon d'Or for best player in Europe. When USSR collapsed it took a while for russian and ukrainian leagues to awake and build something again.

 

Foreign players can't be a majority for now, because there is a limit for them - not more than 6-7 (changes with time) on a field. Strangely it still hurts russian players but in other way, as they cost much more than in usual circumstances and could relax for their place in starting eleven.

Maybe it's just me. But I don't recall Russia having any specifically good players in the late 90's/early 00's. But yes, the Soviet Union has had some good players further back in time.

Just because you are garanteed a place in the starting eleven doesn't automatically make you a better players, competition is very healthy. "smaller" league's like the Ducth, Belgian and Portuguese also was has a high rate of good foreign players, but still manages to produce world class players for the national team.

  On 9/15/2012 at 3:50 PM, Npoess said:

  On 9/15/2012 at 1:58 PM, Amen Lare said:

  On 9/15/2012 at 12:59 PM, Npoess said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

 

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

 

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

Is it just me or has the Russian national team produced some better players over the last ten year? Players like Dzagoev, Akinfeev, Arshavin (in his prime, he's shit now obviously) and Denisov. I don't remember they had players of that quality teen years ago.

 

I don't think that just because the league gets some high quality foreign players, will make russian players weaker. I think it's quite the opposite to be honest. A better league breeds better players. As long as the foreign players are not the majority and they are of high quality.

 

I believe they always had quality players. It goes to as far as Soviet times when certain coaches used advanced methods, preceeding stuff like total football of Michels & Cruyff, and had players who were awarded Ballon d'Or for best player in Europe. When USSR collapsed it took a while for russian and ukrainian leagues to awake and build something again.

 

Foreign players can't be a majority for now, because there is a limit for them - not more than 6-7 (changes with time) on a field. Strangely it still hurts russian players but in other way, as they cost much more than in usual circumstances and could relax for their place in starting eleven.

 

Maybe it's just me. But I don't recall Russia having any specifically good players in the late 90's/early 00's. But yes, the Soviet Union has had some good players further back in time.

 

Just because you are garanteed a place in the starting eleven doesn't automatically make you a better players, competition is very healthy. "smaller" league's like the Ducth, Belgian and Portuguese also was has a high rate of good foreign players, but still manages to produce world class players for the national team.

There was a lot of talented Barca-type midfielders in 90's Spartak Moscow. Playmaker Egor Titov was almost bought by Bayern Munich for many millions but he was very domestic type of talent, like Riquelme or something. Alexander Mostovoi was also like that, but starred at Celta Vigo with hard-working Valery Karpin, idol of spanish supporters. Dmitri Alenichev won everything in Europe under Jose Mourinho (had goals in both CL and UEFA cup finals), he also played in Roma when it was big club. Andrei Kanchelskis played major role in Man United of early 90s. I could go on, they were really comparable, just not that expensive. The whole football power wasn't so concentrated around top clubs.

As for Dutch and Portuguese leagues - i'm a fan of those places and their youth academies and recruitment network. It's a way to go for any small league. For example, if you're for Denmark you must know that Ajax currently have six danes, youngest three of which are upcoming stars. I talk about Viktor Fischer - Christian Eriksen - Lucas Andersen attacking trio. Eriksen is my favourite player at the moment, probably. I rate him higher than Hazard at pure football.

  On 9/15/2012 at 2:05 PM, Amen Lare said:

  On 9/14/2012 at 11:44 PM, chenGOD said:

lol that was some terrible defending.

 

In defense of these guys i can say that they are all just arrived from their national teams and it was the end of the game when Zenit went all for win, exhausted and totally not expecting shit like that to happen in counter-attack. This is Denisov (1st choice DM of Russia), Lombaerts (sit on the bench under Vermaelen in Belgium) and Bruno Alves (starting centreback for Portugal).

Thanks, i know who they are - it's still awful defending, and being fresh from your national teams is not an excuse.

  On 9/15/2012 at 12:59 PM, Npoess said:

  On 9/13/2012 at 7:53 PM, kokeboka said:

A Russian premier league heavy on foreign nations is bad news for the Russia national team; they'll suffer from the same problem the England national team have suffered for decades now. In international competitions you need teams with players used to playing alongside each other, to make things cohesive, Spain is a prime example of this, building on the success of Guardiola's Barça, just like Portugal rode the wave of Mourinho's Porto in 2004. It's either that or pure raw talent like Argentina or Brazil.

 

The money for big transfers is there, but I also agree that they need to invest in youth development and youth scouting if they want real competitiveness in CL. Besides, of all their expensive signings in the last few years, I'm not seeing any players or coaches with the quality to be a stars in the great clubs in european football - I mean, would players like Criscito, Bruno Alves and Eto'o really have a starting job in clubs like Barcelona, Man U or Bayern? Are any of the managers of these teams in the same league as Mourinho or Ferguson?

 

Also, from the standpoint of the football aficionado, there is little reason to follow a league where mighty Zenit and Anzhi weekly pound the crap out of struggling teams like Tomsk and Baltika who barely have a budget to maintain their grounds.

 

Is it just me or has the Russian national team produced some better players over the last ten year? Players like Dzagoev, Akinfeev, Arshavin (in his prime, he's shit now obviously) and Denisov. I don't remember they had players of that quality ten years ago.

 

I don't think that just because the league gets some high quality foreign players, will make russian players weaker. I think it's quite the opposite to be honest. A better league breeds better players. As long as the foreign players are not the majority and they are of high quality.

I'm not saying the quality of the average russian footballer is going to drop, that's not going to be a problem provided that they keep investing in their youth training facilities - they certainly have a large enough population and a footballing tradition to be competitive on an international scale. But that ensures that they produce talented individuals, not necessarily a winning national team. The success of Spain in recent years and, to a certain extent, Portugal in the mid 00's was mostly fuelled by successful clubs brimming with domestic players - Guardiola's Barça, and Mourinho's Porto. Scolari used to play the same tactics and field almost the same team as the CL winning Porto, much like Del Bosque employs a very similar formation and style as Barça.

So if russian clubs start to rely heavily on foreign talent, they'll more likely end up with a national squad of players scattered through different teams, unfamiliar about playing alongside each other and lacking a unified, common playing style. Of course, this could be a very different scenario should one or two russian clubs choose to consistently lay down big money to develop and sign domestic talent and keep it from migrating to the top clubs abroad.