Oklahoma

it's my understanding that the houses in the stricken area are predominantly of wooden construction - is that the case or am i mistaken? <genuine question.

Yeah they seem to make most of their houses with just wood in the US.

Perhaps one of the reasons they are cheaper than over here.

  Quote

OOOOk-lahoma, where the wind comes sweepin' down the plain,

And the wavin' wheat can sure smell sweet, When the wind comes right behind the rain

Yes, the majority of homes in the US are wood frame, with either brick or stucco exterior facades. Homes in that region, which is known for it's tornadic activity, have cellars/basements below ground level for shelter.

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:30 PM, keltoi said:

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

genuine lol

have you seen trailer park communities?

these people are dirt poor.

We are a country run by businesses that attempt to make the highest profit margins possible and you are surprised by our shitty building standards?

Also, it is super disappointing that most of the southern homes don't have basements. Up north everyone has them, and basements are awesome.

I'm curious how many meth labs got blown away.

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:32 PM, theSun said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:30 PM, keltoi said:

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

genuine lol

 

have you seen trailer park communities?

 

these people are dirt poor.

 

sorry, i didn't realise it was a trailer park. joyrex said they have basements.

with what happen in Oklahoma recently it wouldnt have matter what the buildings were made of. they were gonna be picked up off the ground. and it was a suburb not a trailer park.

most housing in the US is built, like Joyrex says, with wooden frames and a concrete foundation. and as long as its not an earthquake prone area then there is the occasional basement. if im not mistaken the reason we have this style is because after WWII we needed affordable housing for our GI's. so we created suburbs that had very cheap, wooden frames being the cheapest. i think we just kinda stuck with it, granted they are much better than they used to be built but its still the same.

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

We are a country run by businesses that attempt to make the highest profit margins possible and you are surprised by our shitty building standards?

 

Also, it is super disappointing that most of the southern homes don't have basements. Up north everyone has them, and basements are awesome.

 

I'm curious how many meth labs got blown away.

i'm a bit surprised by your shitty building standards given that many parts of your country are prone to such extreme weather. i realise that most of the homes devastated in katrina were old, ill kept dwellings in poorer neighbourhoods but as joyrex mentioned, even affluent people live in houses of wood, and they'd be torn apart by this kind of event just the same.

Brick houses would have potentially made things worse, as much of the damage is done by scouring where the tornado picks up debris, scouring surfaces which then adds more debris and so on. Better a whirlwind of wood than stone. I'm sure you could build a tornado proof house but the cost would be astronomical. And they would be ugly. A concrete half dome?

Have a look at what a very small tornado did to a brick house in London.

I'd read that the reason they don't have basements in Oklahoma isn't so much the hardness of the clay, but that the ground expands and contracts a lot in the weather extremes, so it is difficult and costly to build a conventional basement or shelter.

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:44 PM, Frankie5fingers said:

most housing in the US is built, like Joyrex says, with wooden frames and a concrete foundation... the reason we have this style is because after WWII we needed affordable housing for our GI's. so we created suburbs that had very cheap, wooden frames being the cheapest. i think we just kinda stuck with it

thanks, that's what i was wondering about. it's concerning cos we're adopting these timber construction techniques over here... might be cheaper initially but it can't be economical in the long run?

i was just pondering what the damage would be if this kind of tornado hit my house, my town... ... ... edit - kakapo lays it down.

this EF scale is flawed aswell cos they work out the rating by the damage caused, after the event. so it's impossible to compare seperate events in different areas with different constructions.

in the long run wooden frame houses arent that great. wood rots and things like that. but that doesent mean they cant survive a long time. we have colonial era houses still standing tall and efficient. so wooden frame houses can last but they require much more maintenance then i would suspect brick would. but the low initial costs kinda justifies this shorten life span and maintenance. and i do want to mention that just cause our houses are wooden frames doesnt mean that our building standards are shitty. wood has more "give" than brick, so a wooden house, while "weaker," could survive in similar conditions a brick building could because of this. there are other things that wood has over brick, just like there are things brick has over wood. its just a different building material. it doesnt mean the quality is any less. yeah we have poorly built housing here and there because a contractor wants to cut corners, but you know id bet you that you guys have similar issues of poorly built brick buildings cause the contractor wanted to pay less for materials and what not.

kakapo is right as well, tornadoes (small or big) can cause massive damage to just about any building. i think another reason that we go wooden frames is because of our extreme weather. itd be much cheaper (time and cost) to to rebuild a wooden frame building completely than a brick building that was half destroyed.

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:02 PM, Frankie5fingers said:

in the long run wooden frame houses arent that great. wood rots and things like that. but that doesent mean they cant survive a long time. we have colonial era houses still standing tall and efficient. so wooden frame houses can last but they require much more maintenance then i would suspect brick would. but the low initial costs kinda justifies this shorten life span and maintenance. and i do want to mention that just cause our houses are wooden frames doesnt mean that our building standards are shitty. wood has more "give" than brick, so a wooden house, while "weaker," could survive in similar conditions a brick building could because of this. there are other things that wood has over brick, just like there are things brick has over wood. its just a different building material. it doesnt mean the quality is any less. yeah we have poorly built housing here and there because a contractor wants to cut corners, but you know id bet you that you guys have similar issues of poorly built brick buildings cause the contractor wanted to pay less for materials and what not.

 

kakapo is right as well, tornadoes (small or big) can cause massive damage to just about any building. i think another reason that we go wooden frames is because of our extreme weather. itd be much cheaper (time and cost) to to rebuild a wooden frame building completely than a brick building that was half destroyed.

i didn't say you're standards were shitty... i quoted adieuthingy who used the term first - ok i forgot the quote marks but i wouldn't have used those words otherwise. the purpose of the thread wasn't to start some silly US v UK building standards fight.

obviously we're perfectly capable of building shitty cheap housing over here too but even my daughter understands the moral in the tale of the 3 little pigs.

also, i accept that brick built homes can be destroyed, but substantial, heavy brick built, homes would be less so under identical conditions. i'm just suggesting if homes were built to withstand extreme weather in these hotspots the repair bills would be less over time... surely repairing a brick built house would be cheaper than rebuilding an identical wooden house from the ground up?

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:32 PM, theSun said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:30 PM, keltoi said:

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

genuine lol

 

have you seen trailer park communities?

 

these people are dirt poor.

 

 

sorry, i didn't realise it was a trailer park. joyrex said they have basements.

 

Not all areas of the South or Midwest are trailer parks - that's a bit of a running joke here in the States that tornadoes typically seem to target trailer parks as they get the most damaged by a tornado (since they are simply flimsy boxes on concrete blocks in most cases, not even anchored to the ground).

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:48 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

We are a country run by businesses that attempt to make the highest profit margins possible and you are surprised by our shitty building standards?

 

Also, it is super disappointing that most of the southern homes don't have basements. Up north everyone has them, and basements are awesome.

 

I'm curious how many meth labs got blown away.

 

i'm a bit surprised by your shitty building standards given that many parts of your country are prone to such extreme weather. i realise that most of the homes devastated in katrina were old, ill kept dwellings in poorer neighbourhoods but as joyrex mentioned, even affluent people live in houses of wood, and they'd be torn apart by this kind of event just the same.

 

Nature doesn't discriminate between poor or rich - the reality is if people choose to live in these areas, they have to be prepared for the potential consequences of a weather event wiping their home out. It's like all the people who live in Los Angeles, despite the fact it's near a major fault line that is prone to earthquakes. People live along the Gulf Coast despite the propensity of hurricanes. Look at what happened in New Jersey with Sandy - although many of the buildings that are older are probably constructed with longevity in mind, they still succumed to the flood waters and winds.

  On 5/22/2013 at 5:16 PM, kakapo said:

Brick houses would have potentially made things worse, as much of the damage is done by scouring where the tornado picks up debris, scouring surfaces which then adds more debris and so on. Better a whirlwind of wood than stone. I'm sure you could build a tornado proof house but the cost would be astronomical. And they would be ugly. A concrete half dome?

 

Have a look at what a very small tornado did to a brick house in London.

 

 

I'd read that the reason they don't have basements in Oklahoma isn't so much the hardness of the clay, but that the ground expands and contracts a lot in the weather extremes, so it is difficult and costly to build a conventional basement or shelter.

Bedrock hardness as well as the expansion factors are the reason quite a few homes didn't have cellars or basements. Also, I didn't know England could get tornadoes! Interesting.

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:33 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:02 PM, Frankie5fingers said:

in the long run wooden frame houses arent that great. wood rots and things like that. but that doesent mean they cant survive a long time. we have colonial era houses still standing tall and efficient. so wooden frame houses can last but they require much more maintenance then i would suspect brick would. but the low initial costs kinda justifies this shorten life span and maintenance. and i do want to mention that just cause our houses are wooden frames doesnt mean that our building standards are shitty. wood has more "give" than brick, so a wooden house, while "weaker," could survive in similar conditions a brick building could because of this. there are other things that wood has over brick, just like there are things brick has over wood. its just a different building material. it doesnt mean the quality is any less. yeah we have poorly built housing here and there because a contractor wants to cut corners, but you know id bet you that you guys have similar issues of poorly built brick buildings cause the contractor wanted to pay less for materials and what not.

 

kakapo is right as well, tornadoes (small or big) can cause massive damage to just about any building. i think another reason that we go wooden frames is because of our extreme weather. itd be much cheaper (time and cost) to to rebuild a wooden frame building completely than a brick building that was half destroyed.

 

i didn't say you're standards were shitty... i quoted adieuthingy who used the term first - ok i forgot the quote marks but i wouldn't have used those words otherwise. the purpose of the thread wasn't to start some silly US v UK building standards fight.

 

obviously we're perfectly capable of building shitty cheap housing over here too but even my daughter understands the moral in the tale of the 3 little pigs.

 

also, i accept that brick built homes can be destroyed, but substantial, heavy brick built, homes would be less so under identical conditions. i'm just suggesting if homes were built to withstand extreme weather in these hotspots the repair bills would be less over time... surely repairing a brick built house would be cheaper than rebuilding an identical wooden house from the ground up?

 

Bricks are vastly more expensive than timber and drywall, hence why most US homes are wood with brick or stucco facades. Ironically, in Mexico (like in the Yucatan peninsula and in many parts of Mexico), houses traditionally are built from cinder blocks - makes hanging pictures and running wire difficult (and insulation), but can withstand hurricane force winds (although nobody escapes flooding). They too are now moving to a timber construction as a cost saving measure.

I think earthen homes are the safest, barring flooding. And very BoC.

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:32 PM, theSun said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:30 PM, keltoi said:

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

genuine lol

 

have you seen trailer park communities?

 

these people are dirt poor.

 

 

sorry, i didn't realise it was a trailer park. joyrex said they have basements.

 

this case wasn't a trailer park, but there are many many trailer communities in tornado areas. it's not because those people don't care about their homes, it's because that's what they can afford.

i'm sure there are houses rated for tornadoes, or houses with alcoves rated for tornadoes, but across the american midwest and south there is plenty of growing poverty.

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:33 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:02 PM, Frankie5fingers said:

in the long run wooden frame houses arent that great. wood rots and things like that. but that doesent mean they cant survive a long time. we have colonial era houses still standing tall and efficient. so wooden frame houses can last but they require much more maintenance then i would suspect brick would. but the low initial costs kinda justifies this shorten life span and maintenance. and i do want to mention that just cause our houses are wooden frames doesnt mean that our building standards are shitty. wood has more "give" than brick, so a wooden house, while "weaker," could survive in similar conditions a brick building could because of this. there are other things that wood has over brick, just like there are things brick has over wood. its just a different building material. it doesnt mean the quality is any less. yeah we have poorly built housing here and there because a contractor wants to cut corners, but you know id bet you that you guys have similar issues of poorly built brick buildings cause the contractor wanted to pay less for materials and what not.

 

kakapo is right as well, tornadoes (small or big) can cause massive damage to just about any building. i think another reason that we go wooden frames is because of our extreme weather. itd be much cheaper (time and cost) to to rebuild a wooden frame building completely than a brick building that was half destroyed.

 

i didn't say you're standards were shitty... i quoted adieuthingy who used the term first - ok i forgot the quote marks but i wouldn't have used those words otherwise. the purpose of the thread wasn't to start some silly US v UK building standards fight.

 

obviously we're perfectly capable of building shitty cheap housing over here too but even my daughter understands the moral in the tale of the 3 little pigs.

 

also, i accept that brick built homes can be destroyed, but substantial, heavy brick built, homes would be less so under identical conditions. i'm just suggesting if homes were built to withstand extreme weather in these hotspots the repair bills would be less over time... surely repairing a brick built house would be cheaper than rebuilding an identical wooden house from the ground up?

 

i wasnt trying to start a debate or anything, sorry if my post sounded angry or anything. i just wanted to point out that wood is just as viable building material as brick.

  On 5/22/2013 at 6:47 PM, Joyrex said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:32 PM, theSun said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:30 PM, keltoi said:

i read that a lot of the houses didn't have cellars cos of the hard ground and people were left exposed. it's baffling given the relative wealth of the US, that houses in a tornado hotspot would be built from sticks, but you're saying that's the norm nationwide. why you think that is? money saving or just cos that's how it's always been done there? given the devastation caused by the likes of hurricane katrina and this sort of thing(which is likely to happen again and again, especially in this location).

genuine lol

 

have you seen trailer park communities?

 

these people are dirt poor.

 

 

sorry, i didn't realise it was a trailer park. joyrex said they have basements.

 

Not all areas of the South or Midwest are trailer parks - that's a bit of a running joke here in the States that tornadoes typically seem to target trailer parks as they get the most damaged by a tornado (since they are simply flimsy boxes on concrete blocks in most cases, not even anchored to the ground).

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:48 PM, keltoi said:

 

  On 5/22/2013 at 4:37 PM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

We are a country run by businesses that attempt to make the highest profit margins possible and you are surprised by our shitty building standards?

 

Also, it is super disappointing that most of the southern homes don't have basements. Up north everyone has them, and basements are awesome.

 

I'm curious how many meth labs got blown away.

 

i'm a bit surprised by your shitty building standards given that many parts of your country are prone to such extreme weather. i realise that most of the homes devastated in katrina were old, ill kept dwellings in poorer neighbourhoods but as joyrex mentioned, even affluent people live in houses of wood, and they'd be torn apart by this kind of event just the same.

 

Nature doesn't discriminate between poor or rich - the reality is if people choose to live in these areas, they have to be prepared for the potential consequences of a weather event wiping their home out. It's like all the people who live in Los Angeles, despite the fact it's near a major fault line that is prone to earthquakes. People live along the Gulf Coast despite the propensity of hurricanes. Look at what happened in New Jersey with Sandy - although many of the buildings that are older are probably constructed with longevity in mind, they still succumed to the flood waters and winds.

 

Well I live in the South and they wouldn't sell us Flood insurance because they said it doesn't flood in this area. A few summers later it flooded in our area... Nature doesn't discriminate but man sure does enough discrimination for nature.

but was it an "act of god"?

lol insurance

I know in Texas the case is building standards vary from excessive in certain cities and municipalities (no where near European or Japanese standards but more fee and tax oriented) to absolutely minimal in certain towns, suburbs, and unincorporated areas. It's a lot easier to build lower-standard with adequate, but nonetheless lower regulations in those areas - that's why you see expansive tract homes outside of city limits. The town of Moore is not in OK City but instead probably a exburb/suburb municipality and affordable new homes are pretty much the majority of buildings out there despite being a prime tornado spot. Likewise, people still insist on building homes in mudslide regions in California and Hurricane prone areas on the Gulf Coast. There are standards (in Galveston all newer homes are elevated a story up on literal stilts) but it's nothing like I've seen in say, Okinawa, Japan, where everything is concrete.

Places like Oklahoma are prime "no big government" mentality areas politically, so even though they were hit with a Tornado in 1999 they still build cheaper housing - it's "bad for the economy" would argue most Oklahoma GOP legislators. People also blame the local geology/ground composition of hard clay soil but that's become mostly irrelevant with new tech,

Since so much US construction and buildings are new, it's more of a myth that homes and places in the midwest have widespread basements and shelters. This is also prime Bible Belt area - everytime this happens people ask for prayers and on my FB page a year or two ago I saw a post where someone said "I'm glad my prayers were answered and I was safe, thank God" at the same time dozens were killed. There's already a blame game over the regulations in the area - apparently Federal and local regulations were conflicting and delayed a lot of efforts to make the schools safer in that town.

heard about this story on Howard Stern:

Our building standards are shitty. Homes are not healthy generally and difficult to keep that way. Even the paint on your walls is not good for you. Apartments are the worst. They won't ever drop profit margins for the sake of a healthy populous though.

adieu, explain. What's so unhealthy? I'm genuinely curious, seeing as how I live in an apartment...in China...don't the paint fumes disperse after a few months at most? And if you drink bottled water, then you can avoid any metals in the pipes...what else is there?

  On 5/23/2013 at 4:21 AM, lumpenprol said:

adieu, explain. What's so unhealthy? I'm genuinely curious, seeing as how I live in an apartment...in China...don't the paint fumes disperse after a few months at most? And if you drink bottled water, then you can avoid any metals in the pipes...what else is there?

A lot of different building materials like insulation for example, general construction of the dwelling lends itself to mold and fungus buildups like low level water leaks, air ducts tend to just blow nasty dust in your face all the time. I'm not even that knowledgeable about it, but there plenty of industrial type shit in your home you don't want to be exposed to. A lot of paints have heavy metals in them and other harmful stuff that you are literally surrounded by when you are at home. That "paint smell" is just the most volatile chemicals that disperse after a while. EMF's from all the wiring surrounding you can be damaging over time and especially if you happen to be sensitive. Mycotoxins literally create allergies. If you are allergic to some specific molds there is a likelihood that you just suffer from overexposure.

Bottle water is better than tap in most cases, but you are trading pharmaceutical, chemical, and low level bacterial exposure for lots of BPA's. The best method is to filter your tap water using a PUR or a better mineral filter.

I also have a bone to pick about my recent apartment having paper thin walls which is just a functional issue really.

I've been on this bulletproof kick for a while now and following a lot of stuff Dave Asprey goes by. I can't say I've fact checked any or all of it, but most if it is pretty logical especially if you hear him talk about it. I'm actually going to start a thread about it pretty soon so everyone can share their life/biohacks and healthy living stuff.

I welcome anyone weighing in and contradicting anything I say though.

i dont really want to start anything cause i dont know much about architecture but what you just described sounds like everything that was going on in the 70's. especially the paint aspect. but things have improved dramatically since then. most insulation is safe (as long as you arent eating it) and if the air ducts are blowing crap around then you need to clean the filter.

but i do know what your talking about though, these things while yes are in the paint, chemicals sitting under you sink, etc. they are not in levels that are harmful to people. the problem is that our housing is incredibly airtight. yeah it keeps us warm in the winter but it keeps these "poisons" inside the house. i read a whole article about it. i wish i could find it to show ya. thats whats unsafe, having an airtight home collects these small amounts of gases and dirt and they eventually build up to levels that are harmful to people. but if you can keep proper maintenance of your home than these problems can be fixed. in the cases where the home is dangerous its most likely due to neglect and/or cheap ass contractors.