burzum and context in music

so i'm pretty into this guy's early albums, right through filosofem. but i have to admit, i'm fairly uncomfortable with his agenda, even if it has little to do with the music on those albums (though i really have no clue if all of his stuff is racist in intent and the earlier albums are just subtler about it). should the artist affect the art in this case? it's very difficult for me to separate them, and i find i have a certain level of guilt "supporting" this guy simply by enjoying his music, yet i really do enjoy it.

i say if you are a fan of musick, steal/buy Hvis Lyset tar Oss and Yeezus, fuck what anyone thinks

Ooh ive kinda been waiting for a thread about this topic

It's something I think about often

I really like Charlie Mansons music

I love woody Allen films

I dig Phil spectors stuff

I think I've sorted out how to proceed

How to reconcile the two

And that's to look at your every action as political (in the very general sense that it helps shape the world)

And see each action (doing it vs not doing it) as a sorta Door A vs Door B thing

And so you just kinda decide which world you'd rather live in

The one behind Door A or the one behind Door B

So for example

If I went out and bought Charlie Mansons entire discography

It isn't going to do much really

It's not gonna help his ideology thrive

It's not gonna cause any pain or suffering

Etc

When it comes to burzum

I dunno

If a thousand people went out and bought his record tomorrow

I would guess that as that dudes bankroll approaches infinity

His politics and ideology would gain more and more influence

(If only from the manner in which he spends his money)

so anyway Door A vs Door B

  On 11/21/2013 at 8:46 AM, zaphod said:

so i'm pretty into this guy's early albums, right through filosofem. but i have to admit, i'm fairly uncomfortable with his agenda, even if it has little to do with the music on those albums (though i really have no clue if all of his stuff is racist in intent and the earlier albums are just subtler about it). should the artist affect the art in this case? it's very difficult for me to separate them, and i find i have a certain level of guilt "supporting" this guy simply by enjoying his music, yet i really do enjoy it.

Burzum and Varg's worldviews are (according to him) two completely separate entities, only the Daudi Baldrs albumcover is dubious to say the least. Never spotted any political ideas in his older works, so you're fine on that front.

I'm struggling with the same thing as well, I've been listening to his music for about 10 years, the first 5/6 years I wasn't aware at all of his idiotic views, then I thought it was just ridiculously funny (remember his IQ chart based on 'races'?), but since his latest antisemitic remarks I just try to boycot him completely. Won't buy anything from him again anyway, but I still enjoy some of his latest work.

So: enjoy the music, don't buy it. (or else he'll use it the money to publish another 'historical' book about how people were more intelligent 100.000 years ago and it's all the fault of jews that we're stupid now, or worse, a movie with shots of him posing seriously in front of his camouflaged lada)

I love early Burzum. Don't give much of a f**k about Varg.

  On 11/21/2013 at 10:24 PM, Herr Jan said:

 

So: enjoy the music, don't buy it. (or else he'll use it the money to publish another 'historical' book about how people were more intelligent 100.000 years ago and it's all the fault of jews that we're stupid now, or worse, a movie with shots of him posing seriously in front of his camouflaged lada)

 

It's easy to be distracted from that because his music is good and the history of black metal itself is so mystified and interesting. That was the biggest fault to Until The Light Takes Us - they didn't present Varg's disturbing and distorted views at all, just his oddly insightful moments (and he has those moments) that fit the documentary's agenda. Like this moment. I think this is pretty true to my beliefs, but my perspective is COMPLETELY different than his, often opposite.

http://youtu.be/CJfZMjlIy6k

Here's my take: Burzum is pretty borderline, Varg himself is fascinating at times but he's seriously delusional on so many levels. Usually the person in question holds views that are often completely detached from their art and music (that's why I can't stand people who bitch about the beliefs of actors and musicians). But that's not the case here, it's impossible to separate from his music and art because it's at the core of his ethos in general. But once you put art out there, it's public: people can attach their own meaning to it. It can be re-appropriated and remixed. The problem lays in those who consume culture and are ignorant of it's context and intended meaning...

...there's also the aspect of irony and meta pop culture running amok. This is lameass article (writer is a huge KISS fan and in a silly band) but the photos he compiled are quite surreal:

and of course, to make this super relevant to WATMM , there's this:

Skrillex is probably a fan like the rest of us, and likewise I have no idea what extent any of those pictured know about Varg, and how much they've thought about his beliefs in relation to their own. Ethnicity aside, I have no idea how many are wearing it as a fashion shirt: I've run into people unaware that they were wearing shirts with band names (random college girl in my dorm once said, I shit you not, "The Ramones are a band?" when my friend noticed her shirt) The kicker is Varg probably unaware so many people even listen to his music, let alone wear shirts. He's a perpetually miffed nutter. That's really about it.

Also, as far as BM idols go, Fenriz is way cooler and I like Darkthrone a lot more anyway.

  On 11/21/2013 at 10:53 PM, joshuatx said:

once you put art out there, it's public: people can attach their own meaning to it. It can be re-appropriated and remixed. The problem lays in those who consume culture and are ignorant of it's context and intended meaning..

This, pretty much. No matter how foul (or worthy) the message attached to something, I want to be able to judge it for myself and, for instance, accept the music without buying into the ideology. If I sit down and listen to some old Robert Johnson or Son House records, does that mean I agree with their mysogyny and sometimes sexist lyrics? Nah. Same with old Stones tunes or whatever. Plus, with Varg/Burzum, it's fairly under the radar for the majority of people, people listening to this sort of stuff are pretty likely to pick up at least a basic knowledge of the black metal scene at some point anyway and have an awareness of the context.

I'd say what's far more insidious are the messages in mainstream pop (buy things or you're worthless, be pretty/thin or your worthless, and so on) are more damaging in the long run, because A) the target audience of that stuff's much younger and more impressionable, and B) it's so much a part of mainstream culture that it almost creeps insidiously into people's lives, rather than Varg or someone similar where it's pretty easy for the majority of people to go, alright, he holds some pretty mental nazi-ish views, fuck that noise.

*burns a church, leaves thread*

it does present an interesting dilemma. What's fascinating to me though is that racism and white supremacy seems to take the cake as far as distasteful musician affiliation. Death in June and Current 93 constantly has people threatening to crash their shows when they go on tour.  On the other hand you have a band like Coil where the lead member has openly admitted to liking sexual relations with under-age boys (According to most western standards of under-age), yet almost no one has created some kind of anti Coil campaign based on this.

I try not to not let it effect my enjoyment of the music personally, and maybe this makes me a clown but I'd rather an artist or musician be outspoken about what they believe (Even if its offensive) than an artist who seems to have absolutely no opinion about anything

In California there is a festival called Stella Natura that is mostly these nordic black metal esque themed bands. Some of them are openly racist but most of them are what is known as 'crypto-fascist', coding and trying to obscure fascist and nazi imagery and symbolism into some kind of pro European descent philosophy.  On the surface it seems benign, like these are just a bunch of harmless and misguided closeted racists/white supremacist black metal nerds. The problem is that they cross the line of being 'crypto' about it by hiring security for the event out of a gang called the Viking Brotherhood who are clearly nazi skinheads in everything but the name. You won't see any swashtikas at these events, but you will see a lot of more obscure symbolism like nordic symbols, viking helmets, lighting bolts, nazi SS skulls, etc.  To me it seems like more of a very low level obscure nerd culture thing, but they do from time to time actually affiliate with full on white supremacist organizations

for more interesting discussions about this look up some of the controversy about Death in June, who seems to have been the originator of some of this culture in black metal and other types of music. He is openly gay and once said in an interview that he prefers 'sucking white uncircumcised' cock

  On 11/22/2013 at 1:44 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

On the other hand you have a band like Coil where the lead member has openly admitted to liking sexual relations with under-age boys (According to most western standards of under-age), yet almost no one has created some kind of anti Coil campaign based on this.

 

R Kelly is more popular than ever. I mean like seriously, not just the gimmicky Trapped In The Closet series.

Roman Polanski and Woody Allen will never achieve the stigma of Mel Gibson and I think that's specifically because of what you pointed out.

The degree of fame and acclaim factors in too. Paul Reuben (Pee-Wee) had his career reset because of his porn theater arrest, which is quite harmless imo (and yes I know he was on a kids show but that was a cheap excuse imo) but I also wonder if it's because he's not as mainstream. If you have money, power (or good lawyers), and influence/friends in high places the standards change.

yes, it was always weird to me that a convicted rapist, Mike Tyson was let into the movie Hangover 1 with open arms but when Mel Gibson was cast to play the tattoo artist in part 2 people in the movie threatened to quit in protest. I mean even though Mel Gibson is clearly a borderline psychotic person, It's just strange to me how uttering racist statements at least right now in american society is worse than a history of being a rapist or someone who assaults women.

  On 11/22/2013 at 1:44 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

In California there is a festival called Stella Natura that is mostly these nordic black metal esque themed bands. Some of them are openly racist but most of them are what is known as 'crypto-fascist', coding and trying to obscure fascist and nazi imagery and symbolism into some kind of pro European descent philosophy.  On the surface it seems benign, like these are just a bunch of harmless and misguided closeted racists/white supremacist black metal nerds. The problem is that they cross the line of being 'crypto' about it by hiring security for the event out of a gang called the Viking Brotherhood who are clearly nazi skinheads in everything but the name. You won't see any swashtikas at these events, but you will see a lot of more obscure symbolism like nordic symbols, viking helmets, lighting bolts, nazi SS skulls, etc.  To me it seems like more of a very low level obscure nerd culture thing, but they do from time to time actually affiliate with full on white supremacist organizations

 

for more interesting discussions about this look up some of the controversy about Death in June, who seems to have been the originator of some of this culture in black metal and other types of music. He is openly gay and once said in an interview that he prefers 'sucking white uncircumcised' cock

I remember seeing a thread in stormfront or somewhere about Death In June being a sellout for playing in Israel.

Personally, I'm fiercely anti-fascist yet fascinated by Third Reich and other fascist regimes. It's like a perverse curiosity. Even non-black metal has had it's idols openly express their fascination with the Nazi aspect of WWII

interesting article on this festival I mentioned above 'who makes the nazis'. I personally think they are over focusing on this relatively small group of people compared to actual open white supremacy/nazisim in america but its worth a read

http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2013/08/anon-fascists-rally-at-stella-natura.html

  On 11/22/2013 at 2:10 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

yes, it was always weird to me that a convicted rapist, Mike Tyson was let into the movie Hangover 1 with open arms but when Mel Gibson was cast to play the tattoo artist in part 2 people in the movie threatened to quit in protest. I mean even though Mel Gibson is clearly a borderline psychotic person, It's just strange to me how uttering racist statements at least right now in american society is worse than a history of being a rapist or someone who assaults women.

There's the collective forgetting of Ice Cube hating Koreans and releasing this BEFORE the LA Riots (1991), during which Koreatown essentially entered a race war with the African-American community.

  On 11/22/2013 at 2:16 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

interesting article on this festival I mentioned above 'who makes the nazis'. I personally think they are over focusing on this relatively small group of people compared to actual open white supremacy/nazisim in america but its worth a read

 

http://www.whomakesthenazis.com/2013/08/anon-fascists-rally-at-stella-natura.html

Wow, I'm going to be reading this and the Stella Natura website both. At first glace I'm not convinced at all that it's a thinly-veiled white supremacist rally at all. It looks like a fucking Wolves In The Throneroom audience. Or a Renaissance Fair without as many theater kids and RPG fans. Also, the inconography seems more aimed toward neo-paganism adherents, not say, circumventing censorship laws on Nazi imagery as the must according to laws in Germany.

I'm certain some white supremacists show up, but I'm sure there are just as many, if not more, vitriolic racists at huge stadium concerts for Carrie Underwood. Most racists and even flat-out white supremacists don't openly express their views. That's why it's such a tricky claim to make and why things like this festival are so easily "suspect"

basically his whole article can be summed up in the final paragraph, and obviously these people make a very small minority of actual racist people world-wide but...

  Quote

 

 

It is necessary to acknowledge that while many Asatru practitioners or fans of neofolk/industrial/black metal are well-intentioned music fans, many others involved in these scenes are actively promoting fascist ideas in order to normalize these tendencies. As outlined in Anton Shekhovstov's brilliant essay on the topic, which is highly recommended when approaching this subject,(38) this course is charted out within the post-WWII writings of Alain de Benoist and Julius Evola. These authors argued for fascists to retreat from active politics into the realm of culture until the time was right to begin recruiting for future fascist political movements. This form of 'metapolitical' fascism manifests in subcultural scenes focused on music or spirituality with their accompanying record labels, distros and spiritual organizations, as well as through networks of journals, publishing houses, conferences and think tanks. Neofolk as a musical subculture has always held an intellectual and elitist attitude that is eager to feign disassociation with more overt white supremacists, but this must be seen as what it is: part of a coherent and deliberate strategy to disseminate their unpopular ideas without risking immediate anti-fascist responses.

  On 11/22/2013 at 1:44 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

On the other hand you have a band like Coil where the lead member has openly admitted to liking sexual relations with under-age boys (According to most western standards of under-age), yet almost no one has created some kind of anti Coil campaign based on this.

do you have any sources for that? i remember reading some relatively recent interview where peter went out of his way to point out that his houseboys were all over 18, but i'm unaware of things they may have said before that.

i'm a huge william burroughs fan, but that's definitely an issue with him, and it complicates my liking of it, but i still read his books.

that's an interesting point about white supremacists/pro european heritage guys being the ones who get the most attention for their views when plenty of other musicians and artists have equally backward outlooks or lifestyles. i've always had an issue with homophobia in hip hop culture. it just seems ingrained. i remember an mf doom track on mmm food being really, unbelievably homophobic. kind of put me off the guy in general.

i feel like i shouldn't be bothered by this kind of thing, because it's all over the music world. i love clipse, who rap pretty openly about dealing drugs, misogyny, etc. i remember discovering the band german oak, who blatantly use nazi symbolism/allusions all over their first album, but this is a band of hippies basically playing prog rock in the 70s. and then there's all the rappers in the 90s associated with the five percenters and black nationalism. kmd come to mind.

  On 11/22/2013 at 3:29 AM, zaphod said:

i've always had an issue with homophobia in hip hop culture.

ever been a Reggae/dancehall/ragga/dub fan? It's unfortunate that some of the catchiest dancehall songs are about murdering homosexuals, probably one of the most virulently homophobic music genres (reggae as a whole)

I actually felt kinda weird doing a remix for a dancehall vocalist, at the time it was the cool thing to do everyone was trying to link up with an MC do toast over some ragga jungle or breaks, JAck Dangers was doing it, Kid606 opened his sub label 'shockout' to do it. Well anyways I did this remix for a guy and it literally wasn't until afterwards that I sat and really tried to understand the lyrical content that it was literally a series of death threats towards lesbians and homosexual men.

http://youtu.be/lddo-4meix4

  On 11/22/2013 at 3:37 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  On 11/22/2013 at 3:29 AM, zaphod said:

i've always had an issue with homophobia in hip hop culture.

ever been a Reggae/dancehall/ragga/dub fan? It's unfortunate that some of the catchiest dancehall songs are about murdering homosexuals, probably one of the most virulently homophobic music genres (reggae as a whole)

I actually felt kinda weird doing a remix for a dancehall vocalist, at the time it was the cool thing to do everyone was trying to link up with an MC do toast over some ragga jungle or breaks, JAck Dangers was doing it, Kid606 opened his sub label 'shockout' to do it. Well anyways I did this remix for a guy and it literally wasn't until afterwards that I sat and really tried to understand the lyrical content that it was literally a series of death threats towards lesbians and homosexual men.

 

I listen to dub mostly but I'm a huge fan of Jamaican music overall aware. There has been a long-running radio show in Austin I listen to regularly (a second went off air when the DJ decided to focus on school) and a healthy reggae scene regionally. Both of those radio shows were white dudes, more crate-diggers than anything else. Soundmurderer & SK-1 was a Tadd Mullinix/Todd Osborn project spawned by their ragga and dancehall collection. That's my outlook as fan too I suppose. The riddim phenomenon and dub culture is fun to get lost in. I suppose too that's why it's perpetually injected in electronic music. Aesthetically it's perpetually appealing.

That said, rasta/reggae culture is overly idealized. I was at a party and a friend of mine mentioned how she's never tried listening to reggae because Rastafarian says as a woman she should essentially "be barefoot and pregnant." A stoner/quasi-hippie friend of a friend injected in a friendly manner saying "yeah but it lets you smoke weed" to which I replied with a smile "I don't need religious permission to smoke weed." I've always found Rasta culture's framing of white/western oppression was legit, but at the end of the day it still maintains a lot of backward biblical creeds.

those little MDE one-offs are so much better than the big-production stuff

Reminds me of my conflicting feelings towards ATCQ after I'd heard this track which was intended to go on an album.

http://youtu.be/mBeyZxvqBTM

I still listen to ATCQ

Interesting thread, Don't really listen to Black Metal but do quite like a lot of Dancehall and it’s impossible to separate the music form the views when some of it is about murdering Gays. Was quite upset when I realised some of my fav dancehall tracks were about that

Also on the point of Breakcore artists working with or remixing dancehall stuff I seem to remember a debate on C8 forum or somewhere similar many years back after some pretty well respected breakcore producer used a dancehall acapella that was about murdering gays

Also completely agree about Rastafarianism getting romanticised, people that laugh at mainstream religious views think rastas are cool even though their beliefs are often well more backwards and fucked up.

Btw someone mentioned Doom and a track off mmm food being homophobic, just interested what track you meant? The only 1 I can think of is baty Boyz off Born like This. And tho maybe in bad taste I thought it was kinda funny and seemed more like a piss take on about batman and robin being gay lovers than full on gay hate

I was really curious about Burzum, but I can't bring myself to pay for or even illegally download tracks by someone so bigoted.

I don't want those conflicted thoughts in my head.

I will just listen to Wolves In The Throne Room. I'm ok with that.

I do feel bad about the whole dancehall thing tho. I love dancehall. I was way into it before finding out what they were singing about.

For some reason, I could listen to songs about killing people, no problem. But, as son as I know it's about gays, minorities or Jews, I have to turn it off.

I never bothered to read any lyrics of dancehall songs I have. Not going to either.