Losing the 'one' in tracks and knowing it

  On 11/18/2021 at 7:02 PM, psn said:

Because there's a ton of deceptive stuff going on.

- The intro is six periods long.
- The buildup at the tail of the intro leads to a one that is simply dropped. 
- The bass enters at the three, which weakens the feeling of the one. And on every other (or so) turnaround the bass enters with an additional syncopation (lands on the three-and).
- The second half of the bass phrase accents the syncopation just ahead and just after the downbeats.
- When the vocal sample first enters, the one is omitted again. Repeats several times throughout, with the last syllable of "it's never enough" landing on the four-and, and then the one being omitted.
- The bass line and the vocal phrase seem to pull in different directions away from the one.
- All of this seems to be particularly effective with the skitterish house beat that doesn't really have a solid back beat. It can be almost be felt as "one - one - one - one" rather than "ONE - two - THREE - four".
 

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yeah sure, it is very syncopated but it's pretty clear where the 1 is nonetheless. to me anyway. 

Yeah, that's the funny thing - it's super easy once you have it right. 

I have finally reconditioned my brain to the actual one of the first half of  Spirits in a Material World. Only took me 37 years or whatever... Still struggling with Fight Fire With Fire.  

  On 11/18/2021 at 9:42 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

Do Thom Yorke/Nigel Godrich do this on purpose?  Happens all the time with Radiohead too. 

yep. and Thom/RH have been know to say stuff like oh yeah, there's no time signature in such and such a song, when in fact it is 4/4. makes it all the more cryptic I guess.  

Cool thread. I struggle with this track personally:

Also I find with a lot of more dense stuff I dont lose the one but the 2 3 4 are completely lost to me, and it definitely feels like im not able to experience the music correctly because of it, because it makes so much more sense when that doesn't happen, because stuff that should "line up" doesn't. 

Do you tap along? Are you conscious of keeping time while listening?

Count to 7 and you'll be good. ^

  On 11/18/2021 at 7:57 PM, psn said:

Yeah, that's the funny thing - it's super easy once you have it right. 

I have finally reconditioned my brain to the actual one of the first half of  Spirits in a Material World. Only took me 37 years or whatever... Still struggling with Fight Fire With Fire.  

Do you hear the snares as the 1 2 3 4 on the verse too?  Then suddenly there's a totally fucked riff on the prechorus that barely makes sense, and then the chorus is normal?  Because I think that's the only way to hear it.

Combustion is Meshuggah's Fight Fire with Fire.

  On 11/19/2021 at 6:20 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

Do you hear the snares as the 1 2 3 4 on the verse too?  Then suddenly there's a totally fucked riff on the prechorus that barely makes sense, and then the chorus is normal?  Because I think that's the only way to hear it.

Yeah, that's how I've always heard it. And still hear it, even though I know it's offset.

I think Lars' relatively weak pedal work has to do with it, too. He really lays in on the snare groove wise, plus the kick is mixed relatively low for a thrash metal recording. There's a solo drum part with double bass drums after the guitar solos, and even here the downbeat isn't really accentuated that well.

The Art of Guitar did a nice breakdown a while back.

omg that prechorus riff is so bad ass now that I'm actually hearing it properly.  I would have been 9 years old when my cousin dubbed a cassette of that album for me, so... 29 years of hearing it wrong.  At some point I at least realized that, but could never correct it.

Yeah, that riff is sick. I usually hear some odd metered prog bonanza the first time it plays, then calibrate to the proper one the second time around.

the transition around 2:05 is where my brain melts a bit

That Krantz record is possibly AOTY for me. Its gentle vibe was a very welcome thing during this crap year. 

Edit: Also: Krantz/Carlock/Lefebvre was the last gig I saw, just 12 days before the lockdown. 

It's an unusual groove.  Though I didn't notice a change at that 2:05 mark.  Fucked up 6/8 all the way.

Is that Pat Metheny in your avatar @brian trageskin?

i think what confused me more than the meter trickery is the drum pattern shifting back to its original position when we get to the 2nd verse. by that i mean the 1 beat of the drum pattern gets displaced during the chorus and returns to normal in the 2nd verse. if i'm not mistaken. that's how i hear it anyway.

the additive meter shit or whatever it's called is neat too. also the weirdly placed chords and melodies contribute to my confusion i think. 

  On 12/5/2021 at 12:24 PM, psn said:

Edit: Also: Krantz/Carlock/Lefebvre was the last gig I saw, just 12 days before the lockdown. 

lucky you 

  On 12/5/2021 at 12:31 PM, Zephyr_Nova said:

Is that Pat Metheny in your avatar @brian trageskin?

no that's actually my dad.

Meth Peteny

math peteny: djent covers of metheny tunes

kanye w. rantz: jazz-rock covers of kanye west tunes

i think i get it now: what actually happens is the drum pattern gets its 1 shifted during the chorus (btw the 1st verse ends with an extra bar of 7/8), then the last bar of the chorus is in 5/8 instead of 6/8, and then the 2nd verse starts on bar 2 instead of bar 1. so technically, the drum pattern stays exactly the same from chorus to 2nd verse but the perception of the 1 shifts when we get to the 2nd verse. 

i should add that i'm not sure what i'm talking about when it comes to time signatures and subdivisions. i don't know whether the verse consists of 2 bars or 4 bars. i don't know the difference between 7/4 and 7/8, or 3/4 and 6/8. please correct me if i counted wrong. 

  On 12/5/2021 at 3:00 PM, brian trageskin said:

 the difference between 7/4 and 7/8, or 3/4 and 6/8

3/4 == 6/8 mathematically speaking, with the difference being in the grouping: 3/4 is usually perceived as three groups of two like [1+][2+][3+], whereas 6/8 is perceived as two groups of three like [1+a][2+a] (the eighth note speed is the same in both cases). Sometimes it doesn't matter so much which one you choose, some others it's really important like the ewe 12/8 clave:

[x.x.xx.x.x.x]

People that aren't used to this pattern tend to perceive it in three beats (i.e., 3/4):

[x.x.|xx.x|.x.x]

but the dancers tap their feet in four, so the correct way to perceive it is like this:

[x.x|.xx|.x.|x.x]

With 7/4 and 7/8 - and generally time signatures like x/4, x/8, x/16 etc - I think that it's mainly a) which feels more 'natural' to tap along to, and b) a matter of visual convenience when using western notation to write sheet music. Say we have a funk song in 4, at a speed of 110 bpm; usually in that tempo region we think of each pulse as a quarter note, and so we say 4/4. This way, it gives us plenty of subdivision space to write down any 8ths, 16ths. If instead we were to think of its time signature as 4/16, then we'd have to write all the subdivisions as 32nd and 64th notes, and that'd look unreadable on paper.

[don't mind me, I forgot how to use the internet]

this one seems obv until the kick drum comes in ~2:00, but i'm convinced the kick is just on the & of the beat

  On 12/5/2021 at 4:47 PM, auxien said:

this one seems obv until the kick drum comes in ~2:00, but i'm convinced the kick is just on the & of the beat

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The lower hat patten starts on the 1. If you start with that then the dominant hats that mislead you clearly sound on the offbeat and the kick comes in as you would expect. Nice track.

303/707^(808×909)

  On 12/5/2021 at 12:55 PM, brian trageskin said:

no that's actually my dad.

stumbled on this album yesterday...

(sorry if this is a repost, but i'm smitten by the talent on display here)

I kept loosing the one the first time I heard this and it felt great, but now I can't anymore. Maybe you're luckier than me.

Just discovered Xanopticon, I find it quite difficult to keep track of the 1 in this, most of the time im not sure where i am and im just hearing the stream of beats, It's only been a few listens though

Tracks like this I find difficult because it's quite fast and detailed, but in a lot of points the rhythm is sort of sparse. and there's nothing constant to hang onto. One bar could end with a gap in the drums, and the next could start with a small gap, leading to some ambiguity about where it really starts unless you are really focused on the time and confident in that timing. even a quiet consistent ticking hihat in the background would make it infinitely easier