Colundi

Fellow EKTers,

 

I'd love to experiment with the Colundi sequence... but I have no idea where to begin with. I've always had an instinctive way to compose, no matter how geeky I can get when it comes to the tools I use, sound-design and mixing. And I have almost no experience at all with micro/alt-tunings.

 

And I bet I'm not the only one here to be curious about it.

 

So I thought it could be a nice collaborative effort, to try to decipher it all, gathering our skills / thoughts to make something out of the frequency charts Aleski shared in his RA feature:

 

 

For exemple, I know I'm not the only one to use Numerology here, and I want to see if it's possible to directly trigger those frequencies with its sequencers. I'll happily share the resulting stacks if I succeed in making that work.

 

But on the other hand I don't know how to set a .tun / scala file, to be used with other DAWs...

 

Colundi anyOne?

according to aleksi he doesn't know either, but c0lundi guides his hands. You just have to wait and hope he reaches out

There's various VSTis that support custom tuning - Pianoteq and Falcon definitely do, probably loads others as well. So it doesn't have to be the DAW that specifically supports wonky tuning. As for making the tuning, I had a quick look and it looks like the scala file format is perfectly human enterable/readable - just will take a little while to enter all the frequencies: http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/scl_format.html

Does anyone know if the pages with the frequency experiments are still up? I remember a few audio clips on a Colundi site of a set of increasing frequencies, it was split up into something like 6/12/24/32/64 etc...I can't seem to find them at all, which is a shame because they were highly interesting.

This?

  On 11/26/2015 at 3:44 PM, Rotwang said:

This?

So the last one in that list is the same as the picture on the first post - Is that the 'Colundi' tuning or is that still yet to be revealed ? (I thought the reveal was a tier on the kickstarter but I could be wrong, haven't been following too closely)

  On 11/26/2015 at 3:55 PM, mcbpete said:

So the last one in that list is the same as the picture on the first post

No, only some of it. The last one on the page is just a harmonic series (all the frequencies are multiples of 33Hz) but the image contains some additional ones, e.g. 35.0625.

Oh yeah, so it does ! Looks like the top left half and bottom group is the 'Harmonic series based on 33 hertz' frequencies and the top right half is '16 tone equal temperament' frequencies

  On 11/25/2015 at 6:49 PM, mcbpete said:

There's various VSTis that support custom tuning - Pianoteq and Falcon definitely do, probably loads others as well. So it doesn't have to be the DAW that specifically supports wonky tuning. As for making the tuning, I had a quick look and it looks like the scala file format is perfectly human enterable/readable - just will take a little while to enter all the frequencies: http://www.huygens-fokker.org/scala/scl_format.html

Kontakt as well. Have tuned to gamelan scales, made up scales before by creating kontakt instruments of hardware and vst patches. It's somewhere in the additional settings for each instrument, wrench icon, can at leastt import .tun files Edited November 26, 2015 by ganus

  On 11/26/2015 at 3:44 PM, Rotwang said:

This?

Yep! Thanks.

Edited November 27, 2015 by slate

So anyone successfully recreated the tunings with scala?

  On 3/10/2016 at 11:31 PM, o00o said:

So anyone successfully recreated the tunings with scala?

bump

  Quote

So anyone successfully recreated the tunings with scala?

 

It's basically not much more than a matter of entering the list of freqs into Scala, and then exporting it into a tuning file for your synth (hard- or software). Anything in particular you need help with?

 

 

This is (what you can call) the ›classic‹ freq list that they published a while ago (there's an expanded version now). Note, in the FREQUENCY column, the absolute freqs, as published on the website, and in the CENTS column, the interval sizes in cents.

 

While the Colundi cult followers may put their emphasis on the absolute freqs, it is the interval sizes (measured in cents or, if applicable, as ratios) that are what's useful and relevant from the perspective of serious microtonal studies.

 

Looking at the (or: at this) Colundi scale, a few things become apparent:

 

the scale contains a JI perfect fifth (105/70 = 3/2, scale degree #1) as well as a ›copy‹ of that fifth an octave higher (210/70 = 6/2, #3). There's no rational reason to do this, since in each pitch class, all that pitch's versions in different octaves are considered equal: a C at 265Hz is as ›good‹ as a C' at 530Hz etc... [JI: just intonation, i.e. representation of a pitch as a simple ratio]

 

Then there's kind of a wannabe-›copy‹ of that latter fifth yet another octave higher, but about 4 cents sharp (#6). That's particuarly funny, as the charter specifies a max tolerance of +/- 0.455%. The 421Hz is easily within that tolerance range (0.02% deviation from 420), so it could have been 420Hz as well, without a problem. But no, it just had to be 421. 8-)

 

Same for degrees 4, 7, 11. Degree 4 does represent a pretty useful interval, 132/35, or rather: 66/35 = 1098 cents, a pretty good approximation (-2 cents) of the major seventh in 12-tone Equal Temperament, and/or a good approximation of the 17th subharmonic (32/17 = 1095 cents). But obviously, once you have that pitch present in the scale, its copy one octave higher (#7) is musically useless, and relevant only if you consider those freqs not as a tool or resource to work with and interpret yourself (which I find the only meaningful option) but a set of rules that need to be obeyed (as opposed to: understood). Degree #4 is specifed as 1052Hz, or 526/35 in relation to the fundamental 70Hz. Folded back into one octave, that's 528/280 = 263/140, an obvious (but certainly interesting, at a ›spicy‹ 8 cents difference) variation of degree 4 which was 66/35 = 264/140. Again, the difference between the specified freq (1052Hz) and the theoretical one two octaves above deg4 (1056Hz) is well within the official range. So, strictly speaking, there's no need for that 8-cent-flat-of-Nr.-4 scale degree. But apparently, whoever came up with that certainly's had their reasons for it. Being able to create harsh dissonance would be (a pretty good) one.

 

One thing you'll want to do before actually using this (or any other) Colundi scale to making music with it is ›normalizing‹ it, i.e. getting rid of those duplicates, and make sure the scale is repeated every octave. That's easy in Scala, and what's convenient about that Colundi scale is that it doesn't exceed 12 tones per octave, so you can use a regular keyboard without a problem. So mapping that scale, which spans several octaves from 70 to 1052Hz, into one octave (defined as 2/1) only, i.e. 70 to 140Hz, yields:

  0:          1/1               0.000000 unison, perfect prime
  1:          9/8             203.910002 major whole tone
  2:        171/140           346.283398
  3:        137/112           348.812593
  4:         43/35            356.378085
  5:          3/2             701.955001 perfect fifth
  6:        421/280           706.072087
  7:        213/140           726.511924
  8:        263/150           972.120359
  9:         66/35           1098.133323
 10:          2/1            1200.000000 octave

What's important to point out (to people who are new to Scala and/or microtonality) is that all the pitches from the original scale are still there. They haven't disappeared, they can still be reached via their counterparts in the higher octaves. Consider e.g. former scale degree 8, specified as 9/1: ›Normalizing‹ the scale just means those 9/1 have been halved two times, in order to get it into the range of one octave: 9/1 ---> 9/4 ---> 9/8 (a wonderful, classic, major whole tone in just intonation, by the way). So if you wanna hear the absolute pitch of 421Hz that's from degree 8 in the original scale, you hit the key that's associated with the new degree 1, but two octaves higher.

 

Etc... so that normalization doesn't reduce but augment the potential of the original scale. The normalized scale will contain all the pitches from the old one *plus* their counterparts in all the octaves across the keyboard.

 

Few other things that become apparent after normalization:

 

That scale is actually a ten-tone scale. With the redundancies removed, only ten distinct pitches remain. Which is great, for it leaves space for you to add pitches that you find useful. You may e.g. close the huge gap between degrees 4 and 5 (350 cents!) or the one between 7 and 8, or add stuff like a septimal minor third (7/6 = 266c) that goes well with the good approximation (4c) of the famous harmonic seventh (7/4=969c) that we already have on deg. 8.

 

There's this big cluster of very similar pitches on degrees 2, 3, 4. Degree 3 is a mere 2c sharp from deg 2, and deg 4 is deg 3 plus 8c. 2 and 3 played together may produce nice beatings, depending on what register you're playing in. 2 (or 3) and 4 may be useful when harsher dissonance is needed.

 

A lot more can be said I guess... What's so great about Colundi is that they've managed to raise some awareness of the potential of microtonality. For my (or maybe anyone's) actual musical practice, I find other approaches more useful (studying and working with historical or non-European or contemporary experimental tuning from the microtonal community), but what it does demonstrate is that there's worlds to discover beyond the ›12-tone-equal‹ that we've been taking for granted for the past 100 years.

Edited September 12, 2016 by nicklimegrove

  Quote

And I have almost no experience at all with micro/alt-tunings.

 

This page (and the entire wiki) may be a good place to start:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Why+microtonality%3F

 

Then there's this facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonic2

 

In terms of what to listen to (at starter's level), check out:

 

Michael Harrison: Revelation

https://www.discogs.com/Michael-Harrison-Revelation/release/1488347

 

Terry Riley: Harp of New Albion

https://www.discogs.com/Terry-Riley-The-Harp-Of-New-Albion/master/50298

 

La Monte Young: Well-Tuned Piano

https://www.discogs.com/La-Monte-Young-The-Well-Tuned-Piano-81-X-25-61750-111859-EM-NYC/release/868783

 

Wendy Carlos: Beauty in the Beast

https://www.discogs.com/Wendy-Carlos-Beauty-In-The-Beast/release/105297

 

The Harrison stuff is probably the most accessible.

 

 

Other people to check out are Lou Harrison, Harry Partch, Ben Johnston, Easley Blackwood

  On 9/12/2016 at 1:24 PM, nicklimegrove said:

 

  Quote

And I have almost no experience at all with micro/alt-tunings.

 

This page (and the entire wiki) may be a good place to start:

http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/Why+microtonality%3F

 

Then there's this facebook group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/xenharmonic2

 

In terms of what to listen to (at starter's level), check out:

 

Michael Harrison: Revelation

https://www.discogs.com/Michael-Harrison-Revelation/release/1488347

 

Terry Riley: Harp of New Albion

https://www.discogs.com/Terry-Riley-The-Harp-Of-New-Albion/master/50298

 

La Monte Young: Well-Tuned Piano

https://www.discogs.com/La-Monte-Young-The-Well-Tuned-Piano-81-X-25-61750-111859-EM-NYC/release/868783

 

Wendy Carlos: Beauty in the Beast

https://www.discogs.com/Wendy-Carlos-Beauty-In-The-Beast/release/105297

 

The Harrison stuff is probably the most accessible.

 

 

Other people to check out are Lou Harrison, Harry Partch, Ben Johnston, Easley Blackwood

 

Oh man I'm a big Lou Harrison fan, any idea where I can find his tunings? Or someone who could make a scala for me based on Lou's tunings : ) 

Harry Partch and Terry Riley are both so good.

 

Great list in general.

 

This is an excellent documentary with a lot of good footage of his instruments:

 

  Quote

Oh man I'm a big Lou Harrison fan, any idea where I can find his tunings? Or someone who could make a scala for me based on Lou's tunings : ) 

 

There's this huge zip archive of Scala tuning files on the Scala website. Have a look at the list

http://www.huygens-fokker.org/docs/scalesdir.txt

...there's load of Harrison tunings in there.

 

A bit on his Gamelan @ Harvard:

http://www.gamelan.org/harvard/

Edited September 13, 2016 by nicklimegrove

thanks nicklimegrove. dope analysis!

dunno if you guys are aware of this synth. if you want to dive in and experiment with microtuning, its sick and free: 

http://xen-arts.net/xen-fmts-2/

 

peace

Edited September 21, 2016 by rekosn

  On 9/21/2016 at 7:40 PM, rekosn said:

thanks nicklimegrove. dope analysis!

dunno if you guys are aware of this synth. if you want to dive in and experiment with microtuning, its sick and free: 

http://xen-arts.net/xen-fmts-2/

 

peace

It doesn't work with mac  Is there something similar that you could recommend, that also works on a mac 

no, man. sorry

maybe check here: 

https://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/List+of+Microtonal+Software+Plugins?responseToken=00e105883fd9d2420494bd55b8186ee3

 

fmts is the only one I've played with tho

Edited September 22, 2016 by rekosn

I've just discovered this forum thread having been investigating the new Bitwig Studio 3.1 Micro Pitch feature. A couple of days ago I started to try to install Scala, but it refused to run on my Apple Mac - presumably due to the version problems inherent in trying to make 3 different *nix era technologies work together.

I then found a neat alternative at https://sevish.com/scaleworkshop. It's a simple web based app which can import and export .SCL files amongst other formats. It just works!

The only snag I have now is that Bitwig currently only accept 7 or 12 note scales in its Micro Pitch device, so as @nicklimegrove says, the 10 note Colundi scale needs to have an extra couple of notes added to it. I'm about to consult the i-Ching to discover which 2 notes I should use