Anti-vaxxers

Recently went to doc and was surprised to hear her covid and anti-vax views. Homeopathy books should have been a tell.

Personally everything I've read suggests the fears of vaccination are nonsense science and views of covid being some conspiracy theory are very much intertwined with this.

Opinions? Evidence? Data?

Evidence and data suggest your doc is a crook, in my opinion.

Can you really have an 'opinion' on this topic, though?

  On 7/3/2020 at 1:39 PM, ncrtx said:

Can you really have an 'opinion' on this topic, though?

If anything Covid has shown us that 'the science' can be interpreted quite widely.

watmm can also be interpreted quite widely

Science itself has a quite strict definition but the interpretation of the results has a lot of room usually. Especially lots of medical science is based on statistics and probabilities because the biological systems are just complicated as fuck.

But just pulling stuff out of your ass is not science, and neither is reading conspiracy theories from Facebook or Twitter.

  On 7/3/2020 at 1:43 PM, bendish said:

If anything Covid has shown us that 'the science' can be interpreted quite widely.

There really should be no "interpretation" of science.  It's just that we don't have a complete dataset and as such we have to extrapolate.  That's where biases can skew extrapolations and it's why the peer-review process for publication is so important.  This situation is moving so quickly that we don't have time for that process and thus you get everybody giving their opinion based on a small view of the whole picture.

  On 7/3/2020 at 2:05 PM, randomsummer said:

There really should be no "interpretation" of science.  It's just that we don't have a complete dataset and as such we have to extrapolate.  That's where biases can skew extrapolations and it's why the peer-review process for publication is so important.  This situation is moving so quickly that we don't have time for that process and thus you get everybody giving their opinion based on a small view of the whole picture.

Yea I guess I'm referring to ideological, political and economic choice as to whether to accept science. 

I'm pretty much a pro-vaxxer. I've paid to get some extra vaccinations during my life and I have the WHO international vaccination certificate to show my vaccinations in case I go to some endemic areas like places with yellow fever. Or in case I'm coming from such an area to get to some other areas without quarantine, like when traveling from Africa to Asia.

When your doc recommends this: 

How does an anti-vaxxer become a doc in the first place?

I think I'll take the shots

  On 7/3/2020 at 6:38 PM, timbre monke said:

How does an anti-vaxxer become a doc in the first place?

the hippocratic oath urgently needs to be updated for 2020 imo. i mean this really is an 'opinion' that kills people.

  On 7/3/2020 at 6:38 PM, timbre monke said:

How does an anti-vaxxer become a doc in the first place?

I think it goes the other way. Become doc - see dark shit pharma companies get up to - edge towards anti pharma - go homeopathic / alt-med - slide to quakery - anti-vaxx  

The doc made  number of the claims being discredited here: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/four-vaccine-myths-and-where-they-came 

My wife and I solicit a medical practice that balances homeopathic and modern medicine quite well.  They don't push pills as a first course but they also fully acknowledge when a round of antibiotics or a CT scan is the best solution.  There is something to be said for a healthy life leads to a healthy body, but if something is legitimately broken then modern medical science is often the right way to go.  I guess the trick is to know >when< to push the pills away and when to embrace them.  

As far as vaccines go, I have no problem with them, nor does my doctor.  A healthy individual might reasonably forego not getting the flu shot.  Their immune system might easily combat exposure to the flu, perhaps never showing anything but minor symptoms even if they are infected.  But there's no sane reason to refuse a measles vaccination.  Seriously, do you really want measles?  The vaccination works.

  On 7/3/2020 at 2:05 PM, randomsummer said:

There really should be no "interpretation" of science.  It's just that we don't have a complete dataset and as such we have to extrapolate.  That's where biases can skew extrapolations and it's why the peer-review process for publication is so important.  This situation is moving so quickly that we don't have time for that process and thus you get everybody giving their opinion based on a small view of the whole picture.

science is as political and ideological as anything.  look at eugenics experiments, atomic bomb experiments, and the lack of scientific research into various areas where it's clearly needed, like education and optimal governmental structures.  it's a tool that can be pointed anywhere, and both who is doing that pointing and where they're pointing it are completely political and ideological

  On 7/3/2020 at 7:07 PM, Dragon said:

the hippocratic oath urgently needs to be updated for 2020 imo. i mean this really is an 'opinion' that kills people.

agreed, and I also think it needs to be expanded to more professions

  On 7/4/2020 at 6:41 AM, tailings said:

My wife and I solicit a medical practice that balances homeopathic and modern medicine quite well.  They don't push pills as a first course but they also fully acknowledge when a round of antibiotics or a CT scan is the best solution.  There is something to be said for a healthy life leads to a healthy body, but if something is legitimately broken then modern medical science is often the right way to go.  I guess the trick is to know >when< to push the pills away and when to embrace them.  

 

As far as vaccines go, I have no problem with them, nor does my doctor.  A healthy individual might reasonably forego not getting the flu shot.  Their immune system might easily combat exposure to the flu, perhaps never showing anything but minor symptoms even if they are infected.  But there's no sane reason to refuse a measles vaccination.  Seriously, do you really want measles?  The vaccination works.

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homeopathy is pseudoscience, as proven by studies and meta-analyses. not trying to be rude but believing it does shit is either misinformed or delusional

i too am gonna run a scam consisting in selling sweetened water and pretending it has other properties than those of sweetened water

that's quite the generalisation. especially considering the importance of the placebo-effect in regular medicine.

if it works, it works. there's so much that isn't understood well in medicine. much of regular care hasn't even been proven. don't dismiss something purely because it says "homeopathy" on the box. don't blindly believe anything either, of course.

Shall I call it natural medicine then?  Neither of us have ever been prescribed sugar water.  But when I was feeling low on energy a couple years ago, my doc ran a blood test, diagnosed low Vitamin D levels and prescribed getting out into the sun more often, along with Vitamin D supplements, rather than just handing me a bottle of happy pills.  Sure, some uppers would have mimicked an 'improvement' and I'm quite certain that would have been the solution prescribed by my previous doctor.

I won't disagree that there are a LOT of bad homeopathic practitioners out there, most of them not licensed doctors.  And to be fair, the origins of homeopathy are indeed bung.  But the concept that the body can heal itself is sound enough: cut your finger and it will clot and heal.  Again, the trick is to know when the body can heal itself with minimal intervention and when you need to reach for the big guns.

  On 7/4/2020 at 8:50 AM, goDel said:

that's quite the generalisation. especially considering the importance of the placebo-effect in regular medicine.

 

if it works, it works. there's so much that isn't understood well in medicine. much of regular care hasn't even been proven. don't dismiss something purely because it says "homeopathy" on the box. don't blindly believe anything either, of course.

what i'm trying to say is anything that has no other observable effect than placebo is not to be considered medicine, otherwise literally anything can be considered medicine as long as people believe it has effects on them. 

so i'm sorry but what you just said is complete rubbish. if studies and meta-analyses prove your medicine doesn't do better than placebo, your medicine is snake oil

again, if that's your standard, a lot of what is considered regular care is snake oil as well.

  On 7/4/2020 at 8:42 AM, brian trageskin said:

homeopathy is pseudoscience, as proven by studies and meta-analyses. not trying to be rude but believing it does shit is either misinformed or delusional

i too am gonna run a scam consisting in selling sweetened water and pretending it has other properties than those of sweetened water

 

 

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Yes, it's pseudoscience and the compounds are incredibly expensive for what they are, that's why I find it non-sensical that politicians discuss if they should be paid for by health insurance here. They have a placebo effect, though.

Note that a placebo effect isn't simply an illusionary betterment of your ailment, it can actually improve the disease's process by activating the body's self-healing capabilities/immune system. It's how healers of ancient times often worked with their patients, with a limited amount of available medicines and powerful belief systems (because everyone took them as fact) they did whatever was necessary to activate the immune system through placebo. Belief and intend alone can heal, which is scientifically proven. Every body process that works top-down (from brain chemistry to effect on the body) can can be positively affected through placebos (or negatively through nocebos), namely everything pain or immune response/inflammation related. But it is dishonest to make the patient believe they are given a non-placebo and damages the trust between physician and patient. Placebos can have an effect even when the person who is given the placebo knows it's a placebo.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/306437#what-is-the-placebo-effect

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Placebos have been shown to produce measurable, physiological changes, such as an increase in heart rate or blood pressure. However, illnesses that rely on the self-reporting of symptoms for measurement are most strongly influenced by placebos, such as depression, anxiety, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), and chronic pain.

  On 7/4/2020 at 9:22 AM, goDel said:

again, if that's your standard, a lot of what is considered regular care is snake oil as well.

i don't know if a lot of it is but part of it probably 

therapeutic practices and medicine have to do better than placebo to be considered effective, simple as that