purchasing strategy

I generally set aside a chunk of my paycheck each time for gear purchases. I've reached a branch point, and I'm looking for some opinions to help me make up my mind regarding what's next. This is more about outboard gear. I don't need any help picking out synths. Latest purchase was a sub, and I feel I'm finally set on monitoring. My thoughts now turn to:

A) Audio Interface... I have a Tascam US-428, which has always been a piece of shit as an audio interface, but it's still okay as a control surface. My other interface is a Delta 1010 that's starting to show its age. The jacks are getting crackly, sometimes it randomly dies. I genuinely like the delta 1010, but I'm starting to have trouble trusting it. What do people like? I've heard a lot of good things about RME Fireface 800... worth the price?

B) Mixer... I have a Yamaha MG16/6FX. I like it a lot, but at this point, 16 channels is not enough for me. I'm constantly playing musical chairs (channels?) also, having just 3 aux sends (1 for builtin fx) is frustratingly limited. More busses would be nice, too... the price difference between 24 and 32 channel mixers is such that I'd probably just splurge and go for 32, so I don't have to do this again later. They do make bigger version of my Yamaha, costs like $1100 for a 32 channel board with more aux sends, more fx, wooden sides, etc etc... However, is it a bad idea to go budget on a board that large? I know a guy who has a great time with a 32 channel Behringer, but I still fret about it. How about Allen & Heath? ZED436? 32 channels and USB, looks nice... but no builtin FX, and I can't tell from a picture how the board will "feel." I feel pretty overwhelmed here, there are a lot of choices.

C) I don't have any hardware compressors/limiters. I should probably get one.

D) I'm moving to a new apartment soon, and it crossed my mind that maybe I should look into room treatments, as I'll have a dedicated, hermetic room for all my music debauchery. It's not something I'd want to spend big on, but I'd rather do it BEFORE I rig everything up, if I'm going to do it. Do egg cartons actually work?

E) I've outgrown my current rack. What's good?

Thoughts?

rack lol

hi there

a) if you need that much I/O, fireface is one of the best you can buy. if you want a bit less but still quite a few, how about the alesis I|O6? if you don't really need that many, look at the Mackie Onyx Satellite, it's nice.

b) for that money ... secondhand tascam? second hand soundcraft? second hand D&B? i just saw a D&B 32 channel console go for 400$ here (built in the early 80s but should be fine if you replace a couple of sliders / pots).

c) i'm not sure if you should...only the high-end hardware with the really nice components and high quality controls is significantly better than the high end software compressors... or you can go for tube-based compression which may be worth it VS software...

d) not possible without spending big

e) buy rack strips and build them into a nice wooden case? or just get a random quiklok thing for a fewbucks

hope this helps

Wow, how do you use 16 channels simultaneously as one person? Do you leave all of your synths plugged in at once, or something?

I would go for a new audio interface since your current one seems to be on it's last legs and isnt too satisfying in the first place. I have an Alesis IO26 which has something like 16 inputs and 8 outputs for about $400. It sounds really good, and is built well. However, it is a desktop unit where all of the inputs plug into the top. Perhaps a rack-mount interface would suit your circumstances better.

  iep said:

hi there

 

a) if you need that much I/O, fireface is one of the best you can buy. if you want a bit less but still quite a few, how about the alesis I|O6? if you don't really need that many, look at the Mackie Onyx Satellite, it's nice.

 

b) for that money ... secondhand tascam? second hand soundcraft? second hand D&B? i just saw a D&B 32 channel console go for 400$ here (built in the early 80s but should be fine if you replace a couple of sliders / pots).

a) well, quality is the real reason i'm looking at RME stuff. The alesis IOMix jobbies look slick, I'm sure they work, but I have a feeling the RME sounds miles better... and has better routing options. also, i like to spend more upfront and never have to replace a piece of gear. saves $$ in the long run.

b) yeah, at least i have a clue about audio interface brands. all i really know about mixers comes from using the ones i own. anyways, this may be the board i have for the next ten years (unless i become super rich) so i'd rather just get something new and solid and reliable. i know quite clearly what i want in terms of channels, aux sends, busses, features.... but i know jack shit about brands, really, just hear some names more often than others. soundcraft is one i've heard often... but i haven't heard of D&B. i wish there were local places where i could try these boards out!

  Wall Bird said:

Wow, how do you use 16 channels simultaneously as one person? Do you leave all of your synths plugged in at once, or something?

 

I would go for a new audio interface since your current one seems to be on it's last legs and isnt too satisfying in the first place. I have an Alesis IO26 which has something like 16 inputs and 8 outputs for about $400. It sounds really good, and is built well. However, it is a desktop unit where all of the inputs plug into the top. Perhaps a rack-mount interface would suit your circumstances better.

when i say i do music, people ask me what instrument i play... i always have a hard time explaining it, but i'd say my main "instrument" is either the mixer or the studio itself. anyways, here's how i have it rigged up, maybe you'll understand:

- 8 of the 16 channels are stereo pairs.

- 1 stereo pair dedicated to monitoring output on my delta

- 1 stereo pair receive output of a matrix switcher, so i can have any of four devices go to that pair (more monitoring, my TV for when I do my QSI shit, minidisc playback, etc)

- 1 stereo pair for my Prophet VS, sometimes I also have the matrix switcher own that

- Final stereo pair is my MS2000, sometimes prophet VS

I just got a Korg Radias... which has four outputs... other synths which do stereo...

...but the mono channels are where the real scramble is. My MPC will do six channels of output at once, and it's VERY common for me to max it out... which leaves two measly channels remaining. I have probably a dozen synths!! Analog drums, microphones, bent toys... Don't get me started on FX...

A) MOTU Traveler here. Currently being very fussy with my Vista 64 rig / FireWire card / something. When it works, it works well. Will keep you posted.

B) I would actually go for more channels / shitty brand, cos running out can hamper your flow. You might want to consider a separate preamp or two in case you have a quiet source you need to boost without introducing stupid amounts of hiss

C) Why? A LOT of people use the Behringer AutoCom FWIW

D) If you don't own the house, don't bother. Egg cartons are a myth sadly.

E) Ditto. I'm thinking of moving to 2x proper "roadcase" racks - one for synths and one for effects. 8 spaces each

you're far more responsible than I am.... setting aside parts of your paycheck etc.

i just wait until I have enough in my account, and blow it all, and start from 0 each time.

okay, after more research/convos, i still like RME, but i think the fireface 400 would be perfectly adequate for my needs. fireface 800 is overkill.

  analogue wings said:

B) I would actually go for more channels / shitty brand, cos running out can hamper your flow. You might want to consider a separate preamp or two in case you have a quiet source you need to boost without introducing stupid amounts of hiss

 

C) Why? A LOT of people use the Behringer AutoCom FWIW

B) It's not just that. I'll never sell my current board, not ever. It'd be like selling an old friend. The bigger/newer models from the same line are essentially identical to what I know and love, but with a lot of the problems fixed!! On the other hand, I _could_ afford a more mack(ie) daddy mixer if it were worth it... I dunno. I'm really leaning towards just getting another yamaha, the MG32/14FX specifically. I treat my gear with love and respect, but I've probably worked my MG16/6FX harder, put it through more crap, than anything else.. and the only wear I know of is the stereo fader being a tad scratchy. Not even bothersome enough for me to fix. It was like $350 for 16 channels, built in fx unit... and I like how they look!

C) Up until recently I really didn't give two shits about mix/master beyond just getting it in the ballpark... but that was really because I had shit speakers, and none of my cans are that fantastic either. However, now that I can clearly hear what I'm doing, I'm finding myself with far fewer excuses to be lazy about mix. I don't like using software when i'm jamming live, and so if I want compression during the fact, I need a hardware one. On the other hand, I might be better served if I just did the ol' kung fu training routine for EQ in the mountains for six months... I don't use it much, especially live, and I feel just as lacking there as I do in my knowledge of compression. My new gear is keeping me plenty busy, and will for a while, so I'm going to think about this one for a bit.

  Kcinsu said:

you're far more responsible than I am.... setting aside parts of your paycheck etc.

 

i just wait until I have enough in my account, and blow it all, and start from 0 each time.

It's not really about responsibility, it's more about personal style... but i do feel it's generally better to sip your beer, rather than gulp. You enjoy the taste more.

- soundcard : RME, Apogee, Echo, E-Mu, Focusrite. the rest is crap

- mixer : buy an old mixer, back when they were made by real people who cared about their job. i once had an old Soundcraft Spirit Studio 24, when it got released it did cost 3000 $. got it for 1000$. amazing sound.

but really you should plug your shit directly to your soundcard. mixers are so 90's. and they color the sound.

good brands : soundcraft, mackie, allen & heath

- hardware compressor / limiter ? forget about hardware and get an UAD card. most budget hardware can't compete with the UAD. only high end gear is better, when it's not same sounding.

a friend has a good Drawmer compressor. he heard the new UAD dbx compressor. now he's selling it...

more and more people are mixing "in the box". it's less fun than the real thing, and takes more time, but it works.

only old farts will tell you the contrary, cause they don't know how to use a computer

- egg cartons are a legend. there's a shop nearby cutting foam for different applications. they have a bunch of unused foam, and sell them for cheap. foam will get you rid of those high frequencies, but the basses will still be here. for the basses, a sofa can help.

real acoustic treatment is too expensive sadly...

heres an idea, stop buying new shit until you can actually use your old shit well

  beneboi said:

heres an idea, stop buying new shit until you can actually use your old shit well

good in theory... but I do believe there are pieces of gear out there that lend themselves to different peoples different work styles.

Its a matter of knowing when you just lust after a piece of gear.... or when you realize the limits youve hit with your current gear, and the opportunities a new piece can inspire.

I think most people fail at this though.... but still.

Im happy to say, that I dont feel like I need any new gear right now. I wanted a machine drum for a long time, but Ive since put in tons of time on making my own drum machine, using all my 4 slots on my G2, and I must say, I much prefer this... the MD would be great for live use.... but my focus is on writing right now.

If I had the opportunity to get a new piece of gear right now, it would be to switch my G2 Engine, for a G2 keyboard. I already have a keyboard as well, but manytimes I want to assign a knob to the keyboard, and its like "fuck.... thats actually the engine playing this.... not the keyboard"

or maybe just a 3rd G2 altogether. Just for convenience... less bouncing temp audio tracks, and more real time sequencing.

but whatev's

i sold all my hardware except for a mixer, all so i can afford a lush turntable setup. basically the stuff was just taking up space and if i really wanted to make toons i could just use a computer... so i'll say the best piece of gear is a computer, and after that, a hardware controller

  YEK said:

i sold all my hardware except for a mixer, all so i can afford a lush turntable setup. basically the stuff was just taking up space and if i really wanted to make toons i could just use a computer... so i'll say the best piece of gear is a computer, and after that, a hardware controller

not that most of you care but i did this because i realized just how much cash can be put into making a very good hardware studio. it was ridiculous. especially when i feel just as at home on ableton and reason.

  YEK said:

i sold all my hardware except for a mixer, all so i can afford a lush turntable setup. basically the stuff was just taking up space and if i really wanted to make toons i could just use a computer... so i'll say the best piece of gear is a computer, and after that, a hardware controller

my studio = a macbook, a soundcard, good monitors and a midi keyboard

that's it

hardware is dead to me

gotta get rid of that gear lust and focus on what you really need

Hardware? pfshh, too expensive.

*boots up reason*

Edit: Actually while I'm posting a nonsensical and immature comment that doesn't help the discussion a bit might I add a quick question...

I do everything with headphones, what are some decent and by decent I mean best quality for the lowest (LOWEST) price studio monitors? I'm tired of wearing headphones all the time.

this morning, my delta 1010 would not function. i spent time i would have liked to spend sipping my coffee and browsing watmm/news debugging it instead, to no avail.

i just ordered a fireface 800. i WAS gonna go with the 400, but the 800 is, suitably, only $400 more, and i figure if i'm dropping $1k+ on an interface i shouldn't nickel and dime it...

gonna hold off on the mixer for now. i have an idea about building some nice crazy router/switcher boxes...

  bontempi said:

hardware is dead to me

 

gotta get rid of that gear lust and focus on what you really need

see, you're missing the point here. i didn't want people to come in and try to sell me on doing things THEIR way, i just wanted some advice on what gear was good. if you want to go on about how unnecessary hardware is, your comments will get much more attention if you just start your own thread.

seriously. i'm not upset or anything, just people do this shit far too much - "if it's not how i do it, it's WRONG!!" there are very few wrong answers with this stuff. i'm a different person than you, why should i copy your approach? it wouldn't fit me.

  beneboi said:

heres an idea, stop buying new shit until you can actually use your old shit well

what a useless post.

I think for an audio interface, DA converters are going to be everything with your sort of rig, and I doubt you will be spending any less then 500. I think TC Electroncs, Apogee, and MOTU make really good ones that i've personally heard. I've never heard RME but I have a friend who records metal and swears by his RME fireface and have heard the stuff he's made. His output is super clean, and he normally has a knack for making things too loud and distorted. It essentially cleaned up his sound.

Should be also noted that most higher end audio interfaces can double as a mixer when your computer is off, least my TC does.

i said "to me"

i don't think i've said "im right & ur wrong" too much. i know nobody work the same way. hopefully.

i used to have a MPC with 8 outs, an E6400, a nord lead, a micromodular, two dbxs, two multifx/reverbs, a huge soundcraft mixboard with 24 inputs, a fostex d-108, an old G4, etc etc... i hated software and didn't want to make music in front of a computer.

then i discovered logic and liked it. i sold everything, and felt much better.

your story reminded me of mine.

now i'm getting sick of the computer and electrnoic music, and only uses logic to record real instruments with microphones

i started using software long before i had any hardware, and exclusively used software, for six or seven years.

then i got bored of that, and started buying hardware.

your story sounds opposite to mine!

i still use software sometimes, but i tend to do all software or all hardware, not a fan of mixing the two. hardware is much more immediate and fun, but should i ever tire of it, i just start up cubase, which is lovely in its own way.

i might start mixing them more once i get the fireface.

Yeah I got a hardware synth and basically never opened a VSTi ever again.

A) Besides your studio monitors, the interface you use to record your sounds is probably one of the most important things in your studio, so I'd save up and get the best one you can. If I were buying a new one I'd be looking at something from Apogee or a Lynx Aurora. These are very expensive, but if you got one of these you'd probably never buy another audio interface again (or at least until computers all change over to USB7.0 in 2014)

B) Allen & Heath or Spirit are two names I keep hearing over and over again. I wouldn't bother about mixers with built in effects, you probably have better effects in some outboard box, or on your computer.

C) I personally wouldn't buy a dedicated compressor/limiter. Compression is such a black art that I'd recommend you use it as little as possible, and just concentrate on just getting the levels and EQ right on each track. If you've made a track you think is brilliant then get it mastered by a professional before releasing it.

A good book I'd recommend reading is "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz, after reading that I realised that I should concentrate on just equalising things more and try to avoid compression altogether. I suppose it also depends on how you were planning to use the outboard compressor.

D) Room treatments, another dark art. I've no idea how to treat a room, if you'd released a few things and they were successful and you were actually making a bit of money from producing then I'd hire a professional to treat the room for you. If not I'd wait until I'd make my first 5000 Euro from music sales/playing live. :)

E) Rackidy rack, don't talk back!

F) Please not another "hardware Vs software" thread, for the love of all that is holy and pure........

A) Got RME Fireface 800. I think it's at that level of last one I'll buy... I didn't expect to hear a difference immediately - I'm no Steve Albini - but I did. I didn't even have to A/B it. I put on a tune and said - fucking hell, that delta was shit! If it turns out the Apogee or whatever is that much better again, I could trade up eventually..

B) The FX are just handy, a bonus, not what I'm basing the decision on (except if FX is the difference between two identical boards). I suppose my real quandry here is audio quality - again, I'm no Steve Albini, and I worry this Yamaha board has quality issues like the delta. How can I figure it out? Directing monitoring, A/Bing maybe?

C) There was another crazy thread about phase, sidechaining on this forum. I wouldn't want a compressor so much for mix as for fucking around with, trying to get odd sounds by feeding fx back on itself and sidechaining itself or whatever. More practicly, the best way for me to understand anything (black arts included) is to just muck around with it for a few months. Having someone there helping me out, suggesting things at the right time, offering helpful pointers, would vastly accelerate how quickly I pick it up. Books can feel too removed from the situation.

That being said, I'll look into that book, but I ready got a stack five deep in the hopper... not to mention ones I've heard floating around and meant to check out, like "On The Wires of Our Nerves" - I'd been listening to Add N to (x) and I found that book in the library, totally by accident - but then, as now, I had an armful of books already, and I just said - aww, another time... aargh :)

D) Yeah, the name of the game here is low-hanging fruit. Go for the stuff that is easiest, makes the most impact. Room treatment seems to be a wild goose chase, for someone at my level of understanding.

E) wat

F) http://www.ricedoutyugo.com/view.php?post=2817 remember analog has limits too

yeah the RME fireface is good, welcome to the world of proper A/D D/A converters!

after using the 1010 the fireface is a big step up, the 1010 is definatley a low end bit of gear, the rme is a proud midrange piece and when you consider the huge cost of the high end stuff with the relatively small quality upgrade you are laughing.

i have just bought a metric halo uln-2 for my home set up, similar quality converters and the difference is amazing, suddenly the mix becomes fully 3d and you can pick out individual sounds so easily in a good mix.

At work we have a pro-tools HD setup which is insured for £12,000 and the quality in the converters is great, but suprisingly comparable to the sound of the RME or metric halo. Not realy comparable but the difference is not of consequence for most uses.

mixers - be careful, the preams on a mixer colour the sound a lot. for example a mackie is a good, functionl, robust desk but they have a clean plastic sound that negates the qualities of good converters, ie the converter is so good it capture the flaws in a mackie desk. I would much rather go for something less clean but with a bit of character like a higher end soundcraft (not the highest end, thats silly money, just not the budget stuff!) or basically any other old desk that has a bit of a 'sound' to it.

for a collection of great compressors and also (perhaps more importantly) a collection of great preamps I cant recommend enough the focusrite liquid channel. It is fairly expensive but i recently bough one for £675 second hand and it is f***ing amazing. you get 40 great compressors and 40 great preamps so you can use it as your main recording channel, a great A/D converter and a digital compressor via the digital in/out.

its amazing and i cant recommend it enough, it so cool being able to say 'what would I like to record this sound on? hmm, how about a neve with a fairchild compressor' and knowing they sound almost identical to the real thing (i work in a studio that has the real thing and we quite often use the liquid channel so we have a choice of 40 rather than the 3 with have there!).

if you are happy with the preamps on your desk then the focusrite liquid mx has the same compressors (I'm told, I have ever use one) and 40 eq's as well and it only costs £320 ish (a lot less second hand i imagine) so you get 40 amazing compressors and 40 amazing eqs for the price of one ok one.

im not sponsored by focusrite, just a fan :) but if you want a compressor I would seriously consider this, it is like a UAD card so there is not load on your cpu.

man, high quality audio is an eternal expensive quest but if, like me, you are a massive audio geek then it is a very exciting time with the new technology we have at the moment!

o

i wouldn't want to spend terribly much on a compressor right now... just one that's basic, but not shit, so i can learn what the delio is. if i'm into it, i'll sink money into a proper one. i won't be using it everywhere until i understand how to use it properly, so it doesn't need to be top notch!!

Ive got no experience with Interface systems atall, how good would you consider the Saffire Proplus to be mr hathat and welcome

i notice that you say hathats RME 800 is a decent midrange interface, but google shopping is turfing it out at close to a grand.