surviving obamunism

  Betty said:

  my usernames always really suck said:

I'm not convinced socialism is compatible with the idea of a small, efficient, limited government.

Maybe this is a simplistic notion but I take socialism to mean placing social values above economic ones. That concept can be used as an cover for power grabbing but if done properly it really shouldn't.

Whether it's communism or socialism, both social methods are gauranteed to fail as they continue on with a monetary system just like capitalism. Money is the source of many problems, you don't need to be an expert as you live in the system where debt is perpetual and reoccuring - you are experiencing many levels of social values being distorted on a daily basis by money.

What I would like to know is why so many feel powerless? As if no one feels they can actually make a difference.. this is what you are conditioned to think, it's as if a mind prison has been cast upon you. Open your mind, look at things from a bigger perspective and be forthcoming when there is new information. The scientific method and critical thought are things to be upheld, I feel as though in this day and age no one gives a shit about these. Here's how it goes:

Monday - Friday - full time monetary slavery "you shall work until you sweat at the brow", sure sure - you submit to employment to ensure your very basic human needs are fulfilled.. this is truely mind blowing

come the weekend, it's time to get drunk, forget about the depressive weekdays in work and look forward to that shag later on in the evening

WHAT A SURPRISE, a repeat of these events on a weekly basis - can't wait! By the way, you are to never question authority during all of this. You are to use a tiny amount of brain capacity when you go to work at the call centre/cashier a behind a till/insurance broker. Does anyone even take a look at the cashier serving you at the local supermarket and think to themselves, this person is not being put forward to their fullest magnitude. They could be in a science lab at the moment finding a cure for cancer, they could be fulfilling their life long passion of travelling the world.. no this can't happen in a monetary system, you carry on working behind that till until you leave off at 6pm and you better return back tomorrow morning 8am sharp otherwise we'll fire you. This is no way to live a human life.

If we were to really to give up on a monetary system, I think we would have to actively go out of our way to regress technologically. Only pre-industial revolution activities and goods would be kosher. No electronic music and certainly no internet forums. I think it could be worth it in the long run but it would be a fucking hardcore adjustment that some people would not be able to handle even if they really wanted to.

  Betty said:

If we were to really to give up on a monetary system, I think we would have to actively go out of our way to regress technologically. Only pre-industial revolution activities and goods would be kosher. No electronic music and certainly no internet forums. I think it could be worth it in the long run but it would be a fucking hardcore adjustment that some people would not be able to handle even if they really wanted to.

This is DNA's game. Politics were excreted from the struggle to mate. High priced fashion models Kings and Queens. We created this and it will not disappear with a paradigm shift. Class warfare is an ill attempt to shake good DNA out of the trees. Socializing sex on a planetary scale is this Peace. Technology (money, couches, fem-razors) = why we still grow beards. Its our Faustian straightjacket!

"You better have a gun if you want to keep your hair and toenails" - overheard at the New Ants Anachronism Society Expo in the year 2110 by a Skydrone fashioning the costume and demeanor of a TransAnt Minor during the Great Purging and Reanterface

If you think I'm kidding you are wrong. Feel free to contact me for literature and Got Pheremones? bumpersticker. Losing your humanity does not mean WE cannot have fun!

I would wear the "all hail the god king' shirt, it is pretty hilarious.

the fuck?

  mr maha said:

Aren't the problems in the world technological and NOT political? We don't need politicians with their opinions.. it's completely needless. The monetary system is there to keep the political powers in control. If people had more sense of what is happening around them, they would question the notion of money and politics, they will notice they go hand in hand which then breeds corruption.

 

Essentially, society needs a complete re-design.

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thanks, im going to watch the rest of this movie.

  mr maha said:

Does anyone even take a look at the cashier serving you at the local supermarket and think to themselves, this person is not being put forward to their fullest magnitude. They could be in a science lab at the moment finding a cure for cancer, they could be fulfilling their life long passion of travelling the world.. no this can't happen in a monetary system, you carry on working behind that till until you leave off at 6pm and you better return back tomorrow morning 8am sharp otherwise we'll fire you. This is no way to live a human life.

lol. You really think your fellow man/woman is near helpless don't you? Either your mental image is completely detached from reality or you are taking the piss. Ever heard of community college?

  lumpenprol said:

  mr maha said:

Does anyone even take a look at the cashier serving you at the local supermarket and think to themselves, this person is not being put forward to their fullest magnitude. They could be in a science lab at the moment finding a cure for cancer, they could be fulfilling their life long passion of travelling the world.. no this can't happen in a monetary system, you carry on working behind that till until you leave off at 6pm and you better return back tomorrow morning 8am sharp otherwise we'll fire you. This is no way to live a human life.

 

lol. You really think your fellow man/woman is near helpless don't you? Either your mental image is completely detached from reality or you are taking the piss. Ever heard of community college?

You are only as free as your purchasing power will allow. Essentially, you are confined within the boundaries the system puts in place. What do you mean "lol" and "mental image"? What is there to defend about this current way of living? You pay for your further education.. thus fulfilling the need for the submission of employment.

I think the extremity of your position makes it qualify more as a disorder than a real basis for argument.

Yes, capitalism isn't great, what else is new. People still have a lot of freedom in how they live their lives, in America especially. Saying something like "submission of employment" sounds whiney as hell. Feel like a wage slave? Do something about it. Find a different job. Further your education. Travel abroad and teach English. Etc, etc. etc.

Or, go to China and seach out one of these factories where you can see what a real wage slave looks like, and get some perspective.

Go to Scandinavia. They've mixed capitalism and socialism into what is probably the best system we can hope for without some massive (and impossible) change in human nature.

  Al Hounos said:

Go to Scandinavia. They've mixed capitalism and socialism into what is probably the best system we can hope for without some massive (and impossible) change in human nature.

Is competition + elements of corruption picked up in the environment (social conditioning) or in the genetics of a human? No one has a preconcieved notion of life before birth.

yes, all animals are born to with the instinct to compete and survive.

  Al Hounos said:

yes, all animals are born to with the instinct to compete and survive.

Correct, because they are born into a scarce environment. If humans have the technological capabilities to create abundance, this need for competition is eliminated. We need to realise that an abundance of resources drives down the value of products thus making the need for money diminish.

The problem is that we don't have an abundance of resources. We have a finite amount of resources, and a finite amount of time. And the more abundant our resources are, the more people there are, which make resources and time less abundant.

Economy still exists whether or not we use paper bills to trade, and population is directly related to economy. People might be happier in your idealized society, but longevity of our species will be severely reduced.

  Braintree said:

The problem is that we don't have an abundance of resources. We have a finite amount of resources, and a finite amount of time. And the more abundant our resources are, the more people there are, which make resources and time less abundant.

 

Economy still exists whether or not we use paper bills to trade, and population is directly related to economy. People might be happier in your idealized society, but longevity of our species will be severely reduced.

A relevant quote:

Bernard Lietaer, designer of the EU currency system points out:

“Greed and Competition are not the result of immutable human temperament…greed and fear of scarcity are in fact

being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using…We can produce more

than enough food to feed everybody…but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all. The scarcity is in our

national currencies. In fact, the job of the central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct

consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive.”

The intelligent management of the earth’s resources is what is important. In a saner world, we would take account of the dynamic equilibrium within our global ecosystem, and adjust our production process accordingly.

Furthermore, a Resource-Based Economy would need to be global by nature, for the ultimate

utilization of the planet is an organization worldwide.

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn’t subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

In using renewable energy sources to their maximum potential, we will have an abundance of energy. An example: Geothermal power - according to a 2006 MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) report, about 2000 zettajoules of power is currently tappable wordwide. The current energy consumption of the whole world is half a zettajoule per year. This means around 4000 years of planetary power can be harnessed immediately from this type of power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics

With hydroponic agriculture, we can theoretically grow food in the middle of the desert with proper irrigation.

  mr maha said:

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn’t subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

it seems like overcoming the tribal tendencies of human beings is a bit more complex a task than simply agreeing to do so. we all wish we could just snap our fingers and make jealousy disappear but these kind of utopian ideas seem far out of reach to most if not all human beings.

  Scrambled Ears said:

  mr maha said:

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn’t subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

 

it seems like overcoming the tribal tendencies of human beings is a bit more complex a task than simply agreeing to do so. we all wish we could just snap our fingers and make jealousy disappear but these kind of utopian ideas seem far out of reach to most if not all human beings.

First of all, and I should have addressed this long ago in the topic > there is none such thing as a "Utopia". As we are an ever emergent species, we are always looking to improve our way of living on a technological level. We can never reach utopia or perfection, however, what I advocate along with what the Zeitgeist movement advocates is a better way of living for society as a whole.

Here's a very relevant clip where social engineer Jacque Fresco expands upon a few other things which some people may be interested in:

(embedding has been disabled for this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_RHeRr0es

  mr maha said:

  Scrambled Ears said:

  mr maha said:

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn't subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

 

it seems like overcoming the tribal tendencies of human beings is a bit more complex a task than simply agreeing to do so. we all wish we could just snap our fingers and make jealousy disappear but these kind of utopian ideas seem far out of reach to most if not all human beings.

First of all, and I should have addressed this long ago in the topic > there is none such thing as a "Utopia". As we are an ever emergent species, we are always looking to improve our way of living on a technological level. We can never reach utopia or perfection, however, what I advocate along with what the Zeitgeist movement advocates is a better way of living for society as a whole.

 

Here's a very relevant clip where social engineer Jacque Fresco expands upon a few other things which some people may be interested in:

(embedding has been disabled for this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_RHeRr0es

that's a fair distinction but what im saying is that i cant imagine satisfying needs will ever be enough for human beings. that kind of change would seem to require a bit more than a cooperation amongst tribes. essentially, our species as a whole does not possess the integrity. it's a nice thought though.

edit: and i do think its noble to try to move in that direction

  Scrambled Ears said:

  mr maha said:

  Scrambled Ears said:

  mr maha said:

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn't subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

 

it seems like overcoming the tribal tendencies of human beings is a bit more complex a task than simply agreeing to do so. we all wish we could just snap our fingers and make jealousy disappear but these kind of utopian ideas seem far out of reach to most if not all human beings.

First of all, and I should have addressed this long ago in the topic > there is none such thing as a "Utopia". As we are an ever emergent species, we are always looking to improve our way of living on a technological level. We can never reach utopia or perfection, however, what I advocate along with what the Zeitgeist movement advocates is a better way of living for society as a whole.

 

Here's a very relevant clip where social engineer Jacque Fresco expands upon a few other things which some people may be interested in:

(embedding has been disabled for this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF_RHeRr0es

 

that's a fair distinction but what im saying is that i cant imagine satisfying needs will ever be enough for human beings. that kind of change would seem to require a bit more than a cooperation amongst tribes. essentially, our species as a whole does not possess the integrity. it's a nice thought though.

 

edit: and i do think its noble to try to move in that direction

Thanks for your attention on the matter, I find it difficult speaking to many about some ideas.

Firstly, I think establishing the first village/town or even city where it's completely off the energy grid and is fully self sustainable is the way forward > for this will demonstrate to the public that this is the sort of direction that we need to head in. Unfortunately, we live in a monetary system which creates a barrier on these aspirations for humanity.

One other thing I would like to mention is that we need to be using the Scientific Method when it comes to improving society, as this is a natural way of thinking on a critical level. The Scientific Method basically has three steps:

1) Recognizing a new idea or problem that needs to be solved.

2) The use of logical reasoning to create a hypothesis, considering all information available.

3) Test the hypothesis in the physical world through observation.

The problem that we have is that today, from an experiential level, I have seen many people look at science as a cold and distant subject. People use technology in their everday lives, but some never stop to think about how that device actually works and functions to help improve ones life. Science is a tool, and what matters is how we go a about using it. Do we want to form another Manhattan project to create weapons of mass destruction, or shall we use Science to create weapons of mass creation for mankind?

  Betty said:

If we were to really to give up on a monetary system, I think we would have to actively go out of our way to regress technologically. Only pre-industial revolution activities and goods would be kosher. No electronic music and certainly no internet forums. I think it could be worth it in the long run but it would be a fucking hardcore adjustment that some people would not be able to handle even if they really wanted to.

Internet forums are not a problem in my eyes.. they join people together to share a common interest, sometimes the people close to you in life do not wish to discuss a certain topic which is of interest to you personally so you seek a messageboard for relevant discussions on the common interest with others.

When it comes to electronic music, you can look at it this way:

In a resource based economy, materialism would not be relevant. If you wanted to play an instrument, you would go to a specific outlet which hosts a library of instruments/synthesizers of any kind. You would then select what you would like to use, and then bring it back when you feel that you have finished playing around with it.

Apply this analogy to other things like sports. In a resource based economy, there is no need for property. Ownership has a massive burden. Everything needed is obtained without restriction. There is no reason for abuse, for there is nothing to gain. If you go to a golf course in a resource based economy, you would select on site your clubs from the most effectively designed models available. You use them, and then you return them. If you decide to keep the clubs, go ahead, that's your burden - for why would a person want to transport, maintain and store golf clubs when they would always have access to them and return them onsite.. Our homes today are full of stuff we hold onto because of the supposed value they maintain, this waste will no longer be needed.

You are conditioned within the monetary system to believe that you always need "more".

Mr Maha, I think you need to have kids. People may not be born little capitalists, but nor are they born tabula rasas. Every kid has a distinct personality from the moment they are born. Observe them together in a playpen - even before they can speak, some are more quiet and reserved, while others will fight each other or cry to get what they want. This is the face of humanity. To (badly) paraphrase Bertrand Russell (who was quoting someone else I believe): "out of the crooked timbers of humanity, nothing straight shall ever be built."

Good luck with your Utopian vision - I certainly agree with you about building self-sustaining communities - but I wouldn't expect mass changes in human behavior or thought.

In re: Scandinavia, their success seems straightforward - oil, plus extreme cultural homogeneity.

  mr maha said:

  Braintree said:

The problem is that we don't have an abundance of resources. We have a finite amount of resources, and a finite amount of time. And the more abundant our resources are, the more people there are, which make resources and time less abundant.

 

Economy still exists whether or not we use paper bills to trade, and population is directly related to economy. People might be happier in your idealized society, but longevity of our species will be severely reduced.

A relevant quote:

Bernard Lietaer, designer of the EU currency system points out:

“Greed and Competition are not the result of immutable human temperament…greed and fear of scarcity are in fact

being continuously created and amplified as a direct result of the kind of money we are using…We can produce more

than enough food to feed everybody…but there is clearly not enough money to pay for it all. The scarcity is in our

national currencies. In fact, the job of the central banks is to create and maintain that currency scarcity. The direct

consequence is that we have to fight with each other in order to survive.”

 

The intelligent management of the earth’s resources is what is important. In a saner world, we would take account of the dynamic equilibrium within our global ecosystem, and adjust our production process accordingly.

Furthermore, a Resource-Based Economy would need to be global by nature, for the ultimate

utilization of the planet is an organization worldwide.

 

The planet can only be diligently examined and operated from a holistic perspective. This isn’t subjective. The Earth is essentially a tool kit, full of possibilities for us to create an abundance of technology, food and energy. If we do not keep track of all planetary resources and view the planet as a synergistic whole, our abilities will be limited.

Sadly, the world today is divided by profit oriented commercial competition, religious groups, and

primitive nationalistic ego identifications, making it currently difficult to organize a global resource

management system. This is another reason why the monetary system, in and of itself, is detrimental

to our survival, for it inherently limits cooperation amongst tribes . As far as ideologies, it is time we

put aside our religious and nationalistic differences and realize that we are all here on the same

planet, needing the same basic things . It is only when the world works together that sustainability

and true progress will be achieved.

 

In using renewable energy sources to their maximum potential, we will have an abundance of energy. An example: Geothermal power - according to a 2006 MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) report, about 2000 zettajoules of power is currently tappable wordwide. The current energy consumption of the whole world is half a zettajoule per year. This means around 4000 years of planetary power can be harnessed immediately from this type of power.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydroponics

With hydroponic agriculture, we can theoretically grow food in the middle of the desert with proper irrigation.

I'm not worried about food, I'm worried about metals. They're made up over millions of years, and at this rate we'll run out in several thousand; long before the envisioned society would be realized. You still lose materials when you recycle things, and not all things can be recycled [the different types of plastics, for instance].

Do you honestly believe we'll shed our biology so soon? We have only been around for like 200k years, which is less than half the time that the neanderthals were here. Yes, we're more evolved, but even though our technology has sped up exponentially compared to theirs, it will take a lot longer before we evolve past our natural inclination to look out for ourselves instead of our species as a whole. To reach the society you're thinking of, I would suspect we would have to be around for another 500k years, at least, and by that time, our planet will have already been ravaged by so much digging and industry.

This is a really interesting discussion. I really like what Mr. Haha has added as well. it seems to sum up my feelings about the world and the way it could work ideally. Humanity is chaos

I'd also like to add that plastics can be made from organic processes, whereas heavier metals are made from exploding stars.

You can make plastic from hemp.

to be fair, i'll be dead in 30 years or so.