"Obama is morphing into his predecssor"

the guy in the second half John Turley knocks it out of the park. he too was a constitutional lawyer like obama is.

good sign that the generic left media (msnbc maddow,olberman et al) is this quickly butting heads with Obama's policies. The republicans would never do this under Bush this quickly

edit: she's a lesbian isn't that craaaaazy?

ok, not to steer away from seriousness, but that reporter looks exactly like jon stewart as a woman

yeah okay... so because he doesn't want to release photos of people being tortured he is the torturer?

btw did you see his administration call for an end on the WAR ON DRUGS?...

Bush would have never done this..

give Obama a break ffs, hes got an economy in shambles, two wars, and now possibly the next biggest legal prosecution of a major executive official since Watergate...

anyone find the coincidence of "water" with shadey government practices interesting lol?

you're totally naive and a bit delusional if you seriously think obama wouldn't backpeddle on his policies as soon as he got into office. it's just the reality of being president, things take time, change takes time, etc. he isn't bush. that's a hyperbolic statement to make. i don't agree with a lot of his policies but comparing him to bush is like comparing bush to hitler.

also olberman et al are mostly partisan hacks, so do their opinions hold any water with real political scientists? of course not. they aren't policy makers and you shouldn't care what they have to say about things.

  karmakramer said:

yeah okay... so because he doesn't want to release photos of people being tortured he is the torturer?

did you even watch the video? because this is a strawman arguent that I nor john turley has made

  karmakramer said:

btw did you see his administration call for an end on the WAR ON DRUGS?...

i saw your misleading thread title but upoen closer examination it seems like mere platitudes, but yeah i guess its a step forward in the right direction for the drug czar to be more open minded and look towards treatment and not incarceration. but will it change the fact that 50% of our prisoners our non violent drug offenders and we have the highest prison population in the planet? i doubt it.

  Quote

Bush would have never done this..

with bush at least we knew what we are getting. with obama we keep getting bone throws 'im closing guantanamo' 'we don't torture' 'we don't think the DEa should raid canibus clubs' but on each one of those he & his administration have literally done the reverse of of those claims. So to trust Obama for the reasons he's not releasing these photos is just as brainless as trusting Bush for saying Saddam had wmds.

  karmakramer said:

give Obama a break ffs, hes got an economy in shambles, two wars, and now possibly the next biggest legal prosecution of a major executive official since Watergate...

see that's the logical fallacy there is no convenient time to criminally prosectue someone. that's not how the criminal justice system works. If a crime is committed it gets investigated and then prosecuted in our justice system in america, it has never mattered in the history of our country how much the president has on his plate if whether we should prosecute a crime or not. this is a false premise imo designed to take our eye away from the obvious facts here.

You're begging to sound an awful lot like someone right after 9/11 who says

'Give Bush a break we just got attacked and he's doing everything he can to keep our country safe'

  Quote

you're totally naive and a bit delusional if you seriously think obama wouldn't backpeddle on his policies as soon as he got into office.

i agree with this, i hope i didn't give you the impression that i didn't think he would do this

  zaphod said:

of course not. they aren't policy makers and you shouldn't care what they have to say about things.

I think John Turley has a lot of good things to say, which is why i posted that video. I pretty much agree about Maddow and Olbermann

and Zaphod it would be hyperbole to say he's as bad as Bush but to say he is being heavily influenced by his predecessors policies as the days pass becomes more of an obvious reality. maybe 'morphing' may be a strong or inaccurate word since it can be argued that Obama hasn't changed at all.

yes, but unfortunately that's the reality of working in washington (i work in washington btw). i've already stated in other threads that his foreign policy toward the middle east is a disaster, and i actually agree with a bit of what turley is saying in this video. but the way the presidency works, especially coming right off of eight years of bush and eight years of clinton and about twenty years of bad decisions by policy makers in the united states...you have to be realistic about it.

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

yeah okay... so because he doesn't want to release photos of people being tortured he is the torturer?

 

did you even watch the video? because this is a strawman arguent that I nor john turley has made

 

  karmakramer said:

btw did you see his administration call for an end on the WAR ON DRUGS?...

 

i saw your misleading thread title but upoen closer examination it seems like mere platitudes, but yeah i guess its a step forward in the right direction for the drug czar to be more open minded and look towards treatment and not incarceration. but will it change the fact that 50% of our prisoners our non violent drug offenders and we have the highest prison population in the planet? i doubt it.

 

  Quote

Bush would have never done this..

 

with bush at least we knew what we are getting. with obama we keep getting bone throws 'im closing guantanamo' 'we don't torture' 'we don't think the DEa should raid canibus clubs' but on each one of those he & his administration have literally done the reverse of of those claims. So to trust Obama for the reasons he's not releasing these photos is just as brainless as trusting Bush for saying Saddam had wmds.

 

  karmakramer said:

give Obama a break ffs, hes got an economy in shambles, two wars, and now possibly the next biggest legal prosecution of a major executive official since Watergate...

 

see that's the logical fallacy there is no convenient time to criminally prosectue someone. that's not how the criminal justice system works. If a crime is committed it gets investigated and then prosecuted in our justice system in america, it has never mattered in the history of our country how much the president has on his plate if whether we should prosecute a crime or not. this is a false premise imo designed to take our eye away from the obvious facts here.

You're begging to sound an awful lot like someone right after 9/11 who says

'Give Bush a break we just got attacked and he's doing everything he can to keep our country safe'

 

 

 

 

  Quote

you're totally naive and a bit delusional if you seriously think obama wouldn't backpeddle on his policies as soon as he got into office.

 

i agree with this, i hope i didn't give you the impression that i didn't think he would do this

 

  zaphod said:

of course not. they aren't policy makers and you shouldn't care what they have to say about things.

 

I think John Turley has a lot of good things to say, which is why i posted that video. I pretty much agree about Maddow and Olbermann

 

and Zaphod it would be hyperbole to say he's as bad as Bush but to say he is being heavily influenced by his predecessors policies as the days pass becomes more of an obvious reality. maybe 'morphing' may be a strong or inaccurate word since it can be argued that Obama hasn't changed at all.

we knew what we were getting... thats your argument...? yeah we were getting shat on... fun for everyone!

misleading thread title? thats the title of the article on the Wall Street Journal, that I linked too..

Also... yeah it would have been great if they just announced "hey guys drugs are legal wooo hooo!" but if you have any understanding of how government works this process will be slowwwwwwwww...

as I said give him more time ffs... its been a little bit more then a hundred days and "your" the one with the misleading thread title by saying he is turning into Bush... when all his policies are policies the Republicans are furious about. You even admit its misleading with your response "yeah I agree I am naive"... so good job!

  karmakramer said:

been a little bit more then a hundred days and "your" the one with the misleading thread title by saying he is turning into Bush... when all his policies are policies the Republicans are furious about.

you are using the republican party as a barometer for if Obama is continuing Bush precedents or not? Complaining about Obama for being a socialist is not even policy based it's just retarded.

no seriously good job to you hats off my friend

the 'give him a chance' mentality can only be stretched to a certain point, i suspect that even Obama supporters who are happy now will even have hard time making excuses for him 4-8 years for now

Wow, he really hits the nail on the head in those last few minutes.

you're

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

been a little bit more then a hundred days and "your" the one with the misleading thread title by saying he is turning into Bush... when all his policies are policies the Republicans are furious about.

 

you are using the republican party as a barometer for if Obama is continuing Bush precedents or not? Complaining about Obama for being a socialist is not even policy based it's just retarded.

no seriously good job to you hats off my friend

your using the republican party as a barometer for Obama but instead of saying they are different you are saying they are the same... good job of totally contradicting yourself

  Braintree said:

Wow, he really hits the nail on the head in those last few minutes.

precisely, i mean i just don't understand how anyone could be taken aback or offended by this uness you really believe somehow or rationalize that certain people are above the law or are just so blinded by Obama loyalty that no matter what he does he can do no wrong.

  dr lopez said:

you're

if you know what I am saying is it necessary to correct it? or are just trying to make yourself seem like the one who is adding to the topic?

  karmakramer said:

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

been a little bit more then a hundred days and "your" the one with the misleading thread title by saying he is turning into Bush... when all his policies are policies the Republicans are furious about.

 

you are using the republican party as a barometer for if Obama is continuing Bush precedents or not? Complaining about Obama for being a socialist is not even policy based it's just retarded.

no seriously good job to you hats off my friend

 

your using the republican party as a barometer for Obama but instead of saying they are different you are saying they are the same... good job of totally contradicting yourself

lets get back to actual debating rather than insult tossing. Are you satisfied with the idea that Obama is not going to release 2,000 photographs that could potentially put a shit load of pressure on his administration to prosecute for war crimes of the Bush Administration? If you are satisfied please explain in as much detail as possible.

I am personally very unsatisfied because the release of 2,000 pictures would end forever the ridiculous myth that Iraq prisoner abuse was because of a 'few bad apples' . 2,000 pictures would prove unequivocally there was systematic abuse from the top down

And as a result there would be an immense amount of public and external pressure to do something to punish those who ordered and took part in such abuses.

  Awepittance said:

the 'give him a chance' mentality can only be stretched to a certain point, i suspect that even Obama supporters who are happy now will even have hard time making excuses for him 4-8 years for now

you suspect this why? just a feeling?

facts and evidence would be amazing... especially regarding the future... oh wait..

  karmakramer said:

  Awepittance said:

the 'give him a chance' mentality can only be stretched to a certain point, i suspect that even Obama supporters who are happy now will even have hard time making excuses for him 4-8 years for now

 

you suspect this why? just a feeling?

 

facts and evidence would be amazing... especially regarding the future... oh wait..

please man read my above post. we can go on like this forever but i can tell you support Obama so i would like to actually dismantle your arguments vs throwing ad hominems back and forth

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

been a little bit more then a hundred days and "your" the one with the misleading thread title by saying he is turning into Bush... when all his policies are policies the Republicans are furious about.

 

you are using the republican party as a barometer for if Obama is continuing Bush precedents or not? Complaining about Obama for being a socialist is not even policy based it's just retarded.

no seriously good job to you hats off my friend

 

your using the republican party as a barometer for Obama but instead of saying they are different you are saying they are the same... good job of totally contradicting yourself

 

lets get back to actual debating rather than insult tossing. Are you satisfied with the idea that Obama is not going to release 2,000 photographs that could potentially put a shit load of pressure on his administration to prosecute for war crimes of the Bush Administration? If you are satisfied please explain in as much detail as possible.

releasing the photos won't get them prosecuted it will only leave us harped on something that isn't important to anyone except the JUDICIAL system... where a decision will be made...

It doesn't help the American people to see people being tortured... I agree with Obama on his stance...

Not releasing the photos doesn't mean Cheney isn't going to get fucked

  Awepittance said:

  Braintree said:

Wow, he really hits the nail on the head in those last few minutes.

 

precisely, i mean i just don't understand how anyone could be taken aback or offended by this uness you really believe somehow or rationalize that certain people are above the law or are just so blinded by Obama loyalty that no matter what he does he can do no wrong.

Precisely. I hope what turley said will happen does happen. The aclu wins and they are forced to release the photos. I guess by that point it will already be too late, and like what he said, the us government will look hopeless. No change. how upsetting.

  karmakramer said:

releasing the photos won't get them prosecuted it will only leave us harped on something that isn't important to anyone except the JUDICIAL system... where a decision will be made...

 

It doesn't help the American people to see people being tortured... I agree with Obama on his stance...

 

Not releasing the photos doesn't mean Cheney isn't going to get fucked

yes but don't you see right now in the matter of public discourse we are at a tipping point for if the previous administration should be punished. It's actually become quite mainstream (55% in the latest polls) that want Cheney and Bush administration officials investigated for torure.

if 2,000 pictures were released the general public will be very upset. and if you learn from history large public demonstrations and civil disobedience as a result from the trauma of seeing 2,000 photographs of abuse done in your own countries name it could cause actual policy shift or the Obama administration to cave to public pressure.

I'm pretty sure the Obama administration caved to republican pressure to not release these, remember when until yesterday Obama said he was going to release them? What exactly changed his mind if it wasn't talking to republican strategists?

edit: How would releasing 2,000 photos be any worse for our troops than killing 100 afghan civilians in a single bombing raid which we did last week?

  dr lopez said:

  Awepittance said:

  Braintree said:

Wow, he really hits the nail on the head in those last few minutes.

 

precisely, i mean i just don't understand how anyone could be taken aback or offended by this uness you really believe somehow or rationalize that certain people are above the law or are just so blinded by Obama loyalty that no matter what he does he can do no wrong.

Precisely. I hope what turley said will happen does happen. The aclu wins and they are forced to release the photos. I guess by that point it will already be too late, and like what he said, the us government will look hopeless. No change. how upsetting.

NSFW

Alright there is the evidence! Look I am an AMERICAN... Cheney is GUILTY! LOCK HIM AWAY!

If a case is brought forward, these photos will be used in the courts as evidence... I don't need to see them to know whats going on. I'd rather someone just explain it too me..

  karmakramer said:

Alright there is the evidence! Look I am an AMERICAN... Cheney is GUILTY! LOCK HIM AWAY!

 

If a case is brought forward, these photos will be used in the courts as evidence... I don't need to see them to know whats going on. I'd rather someone just explain it too me..

you are not the majority though, your opinion is still a minority opinion relatively speaking. Most americans want investigations but i still think the majority of people have not come to the realization that Bush and Cheney ordered torture on a massive scale. These pictures will help the rest of the people come to this realization imo

The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians.

In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again.

  Awepittance said:

  karmakramer said:

releasing the photos won't get them prosecuted it will only leave us harped on something that isn't important to anyone except the JUDICIAL system... where a decision will be made...

 

It doesn't help the American people to see people being tortured... I agree with Obama on his stance...

 

Not releasing the photos doesn't mean Cheney isn't going to get fucked

 

yes but don't you see right now in the matter of public discourse we are at a tipping point for if the previous administration should be punished. It's actually become quite mainstream (55% in the latest polls) that want Cheney and Bush administration officials investigated for torure.

 

if 2,000 pictures were released the general public will be very upset. and if you learn from history large public demonstrations and civil disobedience as a result from the trauma of seeing 2,000 photographs of abuse done in your own countries name it could cause actual policy shift or the Obama administration to cave to public pressure.

 

I'm pretty sure the Obama administration caved to republican pressure to not release these, remember when until yesterday Obama said he was going to release them? What exactly changed his mind if it wasn't talking to republican strategists?

 

edit: How would releasing 2,000 photos be any worse for our troops than killing 100 afghan civilians in a single bombing raid which we did last week?

You have no evidence that Obama caved to the Republican party... you are basing all these allegations on nothing but what you "think" ...

Today Pelosi said that the CIA LIED... and TWO SENIOR ADVISOR said that Cheney ORDERED the waterboarding for the specific purpose of link Saddam with Al Qaeda...

THIS IS EVIDENCE... and if both of these things are proven true... Cheney is fucked...

Why do you think Cheney is on some talk show everyday defending himself? He is fucking scared... he doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself, just like he got 5 deferments for the Vietnam war 40 years ago... he is a CHICKEN HAWK... he acts tough but only gives a shit about himself...

Democrats are out to get him... I don't understand the fuss...

Obama won't get elected again if he is seen as the one pulling all the strings to put Cheney away either... cause Obama has to be in the middle... its part of politics.. as I said you should know this if you knew the reality of our government.

  Mr Salads said:

The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians.

 

In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again.

there isn't any doubt that they will create more anti american sentiment but i don't think thats a good reason at all for not releasing them.

and yes lol @ pelosi but more lol at the republicans who are using the juvenille elementary school excuse to get out of trouble 'BUT SHE DID IT TOOO!!!" (or actually not even as strong as an argument as that because all they claim is that she knew about it)

  Awepittance said:

  Mr Salads said:

The nancy pelosi backpedaling has been pretty amusing. Typical politicians.

 

In terms of obama hiding the photographs...whats the point in showing them? To piss more people off? I guess its good democrats are at least consistent about their anger, because if bush was hiding them holy shit. I thought bush SHOULD have held them. It just created more anti american fodder. If theres a crime, let the appropriate people deal with it then make sure it doesnt happen again.

 

 

there isn't any doubt that they will create more anti american sentiment but i don't think thats a good reason at all for not releasing them.

give me a better reason for showing them then.