"Obama is morphing into his predecssor"

i just skipped to the end to say that the thread title reminds me of metroid or terminator 2 or something, shit should have its own thread.

Just gonna throw this out here, reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject, but perhaps the reason why he's continuing the policies of the prior administration is perhaps politically (and I don't mean in terms of his image or anything, but more on a world stage level) and for the security of the nation (again, not that any of the detainees would pose a threat, but more along the lines of if he did the 'right' thing, it could jeopardize national security), he has no choice but to do so? There's a lot of information that we're not privy to I reckon, which might be some of the reasons behind having to make 'unpopular' decisions like this. I'd like to think that he could just 'do the right thing', but perhaps that's a bit naive of us to think that's the way things work to begin with?

i like the way that when you support something, joyrex, you fully support it

you're no flip-flopper

lol?

  Joyrex said:

Just gonna throw this out here, reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject, but perhaps the reason why he's continuing the policies of the prior administration is perhaps politically (and I don't mean in terms of his image or anything, but more on a world stage level) and for the security of the nation (again, not that any of the detainees would pose a threat, but more along the lines of if he did the 'right' thing, it could jeopardize national security), he has no choice but to do so? There's a lot of information that we're not privy to I reckon, which might be some of the reasons behind having to make 'unpopular' decisions like this. I'd like to think that he could just 'do the right thing', but perhaps that's a bit naive of us to think that's the way things work to begin with?

!! .,. because the authority figure does it .. there must be a logic i can't understand behind it ..

come on man ... you're not a child anymore ..

- world stage ... what world stage ..//. you mean the one that is predominantly against american foreign policy and votes that way in the UN ...

- national security .. what national security // .. oh you mean the one that drums up support from otherwise rational foreign nationals .. by doing outrageous things on their soil .. eventually (and perhaps with some surgical goading may get them to actually at some stage .. attic US soil .. in some limited fashion nowhere in comparison to that which is being inflicted on others by the the US .. in the name of security ...

- secrets .. what fucking secrets .. // .. wasn't he elected on themandate to open government .. so that there couldn't be this kind of arguement to bamboozal with black marker the average dumb arse punter ..

  Joyrex said:

Just gonna throw this out here, reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject, but perhaps the reason why he's continuing the policies of the prior administration is perhaps politically (and I don't mean in terms of his image or anything, but more on a world stage level) and for the security of the nation (again, not that any of the detainees would pose a threat, but more along the lines of if he did the 'right' thing, it could jeopardize national security), he has no choice but to do so? There's a lot of information that we're not privy to I reckon, which might be some of the reasons behind having to make 'unpopular' decisions like this. I'd like to think that he could just 'do the right thing', but perhaps that's a bit naive of us to think that's the way things work to begin with?

i understand your reasoning but basically what you are saying is trust that Obama is making the right decision

  Awepittance said:

  Joyrex said:

Just gonna throw this out here, reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject, but perhaps the reason why he's continuing the policies of the prior administration is perhaps politically (and I don't mean in terms of his image or anything, but more on a world stage level) and for the security of the nation (again, not that any of the detainees would pose a threat, but more along the lines of if he did the 'right' thing, it could jeopardize national security), he has no choice but to do so? There's a lot of information that we're not privy to I reckon, which might be some of the reasons behind having to make 'unpopular' decisions like this. I'd like to think that he could just 'do the right thing', but perhaps that's a bit naive of us to think that's the way things work to begin with?

 

i understand your reasoning but basically what you are saying is trust that Obama is making the right decision

I think you have misconstrued his point by extrapolating a generalized version to simplify the point.

In my opinion, he is saying is that there is a chance that classified information may provide a justifiable reason for these actions, and due to the required secrecy of the information the actions of the current administration may seem wrong to those who don't know.

I'm certain this would be a classic problem of balancing public opinion and doing what is necessary, and possibly the only reason he is doing this is to gain public trust on national security, both are rational and logically sound arguments given that we simply don't know. which is joyrex's point as I see it

  Dr. Bunsen Honeydew said:

  Awepittance said:

  Joyrex said:

Just gonna throw this out here, reading everyone's opinions and thoughts on the subject, but perhaps the reason why he's continuing the policies of the prior administration is perhaps politically (and I don't mean in terms of his image or anything, but more on a world stage level) and for the security of the nation (again, not that any of the detainees would pose a threat, but more along the lines of if he did the 'right' thing, it could jeopardize national security), he has no choice but to do so? There's a lot of information that we're not privy to I reckon, which might be some of the reasons behind having to make 'unpopular' decisions like this. I'd like to think that he could just 'do the right thing', but perhaps that's a bit naive of us to think that's the way things work to begin with?

 

i understand your reasoning but basically what you are saying is trust that Obama is making the right decision

 

I think you have misconstrued his point by extrapolating a generalized version to simplify the point.

 

In my opinion, he is saying is that there is a chance that classified information may provide a justifiable reason for these actions, and due to the required secrecy of the information the actions of the current administration may seem wrong to those who don't know.

so there is a chance that Obama is doing the justifiable things in keeping people indefinitely detained with no habeas corpus , we just can't know about them because they are secret for unknown reasons, is that how you are paraphrasing this? I hope i've understood it better this time, it's not my intention to micronstru anyone. but i still think what you've just said, it requires a certain amount of blind faith to make such an assumption based on your own imagination. The assumption that there may be or IS something justifiable to a person who cares about civil rights and freedom in the united states (or maybe you're just talking about the populace in general even those you have given up their rights in favor of things like the Patriot act?) is strange to me. It does seem that this line of thinking would lead one what i stated above, that we should trust that he may be doing the right thing

noam chomsky wrote a good article saying that these torture things are nothing new to america and they've been doing it pretty much since the start and that the american exceptionalism is a myth.

  azatoth said:

noam chomsky wrote a good article saying that these torture things are nothing new to america and they've been doing it pretty much since the start and that the american exceptionalism is a myth.

this is probably true, the only new thing i can really tell is that it's being openly admitted now and instructions given to low level military personnel to commit demeaning or violent acts to prisoners where as before it was done secretly and with higher ranking covert cia types.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20090601/chomsky

worth a read.

will check this out shortly, i do think things like sexual humiliation at abu garib is a new phenomenon that's being done on a large scale. I'm sure that people have done that type of stuff before all through out american history but the fact that it was instructed straight down from Rumsfeld is as far as i know unique

  Awepittance said:

so there is a chance that Obama is doing the justifiable things in keeping people indefinitely detained with no habeas corpus , we just can't know about them because they are secret for unknown reasons, is that how you are paraphrasing this? I hope i've understood it better this time, it's not my intention to micronstru anyone. but i still think what you've just said, it requires a certain amount of blind faith to make such an assumption based on your own imagination. The assumption that there may be or IS something justifiable to a person who cares about civil rights and freedom in the united states (or maybe you're just talking about the populace in general even those you have given up their rights in favor of things like the Patriot act?) is strange to me. It does seem that this line of thinking would lead one what i stated above, that we should trust that he may be doing the right thing

There is a chance, sure. However, I would have said unspecified reasons as opposed to 'unknown reasons'. And no one said we should be making assumptions, but rather not ruling things out when we dont have a complete understanding of them.

To refer to my previous effort, i should have simplified it to say he did not mean he 'should be trusted' but we should consider rational reasons why decisions such as those could be made.

I should also apologize for butting in as I havent read the previous pages of this thread.

jon turley knocks one out of the park again

thought i'd post this since the thread got a little sidetracked since the first clip i put up

So obama is having a hard time cleaning up bush's mess. who could've predicted that...