depression

  On 9/1/2009 at 9:16 AM, 42Orange said:

you ever just get together with your friends and bum each other out and jam on drum machines?

fucking lol

That article is fucking bullshit.

  On 9/1/2009 at 7:29 AM, thehauntingsoul said:

  On 8/31/2009 at 10:44 PM, inteeliguntdesign said:

  On 8/31/2009 at 8:26 PM, thehauntingsoul said:

I wouldn't go as far as to say that getting depressed actually helps you get things done.

 

Well, not "things", but resolving the one thing that is causing the depression. According to the theory, it does stop you getting things done, if you define things as everything except for pondering about what's wrong.

 

But isn't that a self serving problem?

 

It seems like what you're saying is that Depression helps you get rid of Depression?

That's what it's suggesting, as along as getting more depressed involves analysing and solving the problem which first gave life to your depression, which, yeah, is often not the case, as even if you have solved it, so to speak, you may not have the outlook or energy to enact the solution.

Dunno, still like the theory though, nicely counter-intuitive, even if it does omit quite a lot that's been brought up in this thread.

Plus the whole depressive = more analytical is a nice thought. I know when I'm depressed when something's suggested to me I'll break it down and argue while i'll all be shit in the end. Not that that's a good thing, but it does require quite a bit of mental effort.

there is a different between getting depressed over a death, breakup, etc and severe depression. everyone knows that's natural. i say that's what ssri's can really, really help you get through easier.

severe depression is often complete delusion. i know for a fact when i've been depressed the things i was thinking were completely, completely irrational. it's a form of insanity in itself. this article is fucked up because it gives all the shitheads that don't understand mental disease more ammunition to give the people with the disorders shit. "you're lazy, you're weak. everyone is depressed!" it just sets back any progress made in educating the modern man on mental disease.

people need to see that mental disease is the same as cancer. it's not a fucking personality flaw, and as a person who has had to deal with this constantly for the past few years, it's insulting and infuriating that this article was published.

it's not like there is some huge organization banding together to save the schizophrenics. why? because people are ignorant fuckers. i would rather have cancer than schizophrenia.

edit

Not to mention that some depressed person reading the article thinks afterward, "oh no! all these suicidal thoughts are analytical and meaningful."

reedit

i think the long term cure for depression and anxiety involves meditation and self discovery. but ssri's can really help you get back on your feet and thinking clearly.

i think most people walk around in denial about themselves and their lives. they try super hard to convince themselves that they like their boring job, that sort of thing. the denial gets to be internalized, the real truth dives into the subconscious. consciously, they believe their own lies, but their real desires are still there. lying in bed at night (when they can't sleep) or stuck in a boring meeting, they can't escape their own mind. extremely uncomfortable doubts start nagging. the longer they nag, the louder they get. people do a lot of things to distract themselves from these doubts -- buy fancy shit, get drunk, watch TV -- which just tends to make both camps dig in deeper. the feelings get stronger, more unpleasant, and as a consequnce the person becomes more desperate to distract themselves. they say, "no, that's not me!! i really like my job" but they hate the job, they're in denial, and the denial becomes so intense they start to go schizo -- they claim their real desires are not really them, it's some boogieman living in their head. they go get a pill in a desperate attempt to kill that boogieman. if they succeed, they are rewarded with a life of being a battery in the matrix, it's comfy and okay but never good or great, nothing good comes out of their life, it's a waste, they knew this to start off but they didn't have the guts to go get what they really wanted

in conclusion, quit your job, go naked, anarchy in teh streets yea

I agree

In NO way is a depression a good thing. Thinking about killing yourself all the time has lasting effects even when you're feeling better. Prolonged depression can delay personal development and rob you of years of your life.

And no, feeling sad isn't depression if you have a rational reason to feel bad. Depression is a cruel kick in the face when you have no logical reason to feel completely worthless. The article is 100% bullshit I guarantee it.

I like the theory that depression is a mechanism by which beta males/females retreat from society.

  On 9/2/2009 at 2:39 AM, Candiru said:

In NO way is a depression a good thing. Thinking about killing yourself all the time has lasting effects even when you're feeling better. Prolonged depression can delay personal development and rob you of years of your life.

  On 9/1/2009 at 11:39 PM, vamos scorcho said:

there is a different between getting depressed over a death, breakup, etc and severe depression. everyone knows that's natural. i say that's what ssri's can really, really help you get through easier.

 

severe depression is often complete delusion. i know for a fact when i've been depressed the things i was thinking were completely, completely irrational. it's a form of insanity in itself. this article is fucked up because it gives all the shitheads that don't understand mental disease more ammunition to give the people with the disorders shit. "you're lazy, you're weak. everyone is depressed!" it just sets back any progress made in educating the modern man on mental disease.

 

people need to see that mental disease is the same as cancer. it's not a fucking personality flaw, and as a person who has had to deal with this constantly for the past few years, it's insulting and infuriating that this article was published.

 

it's not like there is some huge organization banding together to save the schizophrenics. why? because people are ignorant fuckers. i would rather have cancer than schizophrenia.

 

edit

 

Not to mention that some depressed person reading the article thinks afterward, "oh no! all these suicidal thoughts are analytical and meaningful."

 

reedit

 

i think the long term cure for depression and anxiety involves meditation and self discovery. but ssri's can really help you get back on your feet and thinking clearly.

this post is right on. i had clinical depression and was suicidal and was certainly not thinking clearly, even though i thought I was, which is what is so deceptive about a lot of mental illnesses. As you said, a bump of SSRIs to break free from the cyclical thought patterns combined with therapy seems to yield the best results.

  On 9/2/2009 at 3:17 AM, Rabid said:

I like the theory that depression is a mechanism by which beta males/females retreat from society.

huh, hadn't heard that one before. But I can see how that would tie in with the argument that there is a benefit to depression. While in general I think serious depression clouds and warps thinking, *any* cognitions that place someone oustide of the mainstream of thought have a way of making the person see things in a different light. Content people tend to be oblivious to a lot of things...as most of the comments here from people who have been depressed indicate, there is wisdom to be gained from the experience.

yeah having been diagnosed with clinical depression in my late teens i can say this is basically a lot of bullshit. there's a huge difference between a blue mood and just staring at a wall not wanting to do anything for weeks on end, constantly analyzing everything in a negative way and falling into the self deception and thought patterns typical of depression. you can break up with someone and be depressed, but you can also be in a relationship and be depressed. when you're really clinically depressed you just turn into an analytical shell of a human being, basically. and it's insane to think you could be more productive when you're depressed. that's just a sort of flimsy new age idea that depression isn't that serious, or is just some kind of light mood disorder that makes you more thoughtful and brooding.

  On 9/2/2009 at 4:20 AM, zaphod said:

yeah having been diagnosed with clinical depression in my late teens i can say this is basically a lot of bullshit. there's a huge difference between a blue mood and just staring at a wall not wanting to do anything for weeks on end, constantly analyzing everything in a negative way and falling into the self deception and thought patterns typical of depression. you can break up with someone and be depressed, but you can also be in a relationship and be depressed. when you're really clinically depressed you just turn into an analytical shell of a human being, basically. and it's insane to think you could be more productive when you're depressed. that's just a sort of flimsy new age idea that depression isn't that serious, or is just some kind of light mood disorder that makes you more thoughtful and brooding.

my life fucking story

  On 9/2/2009 at 10:55 AM, xxx said:

This is easier said than done and if you keep crunching Celexa saying "this shit isn't gonna work anyway" it very well may not.

You're clearly well read on the subject but I've always been skeptical of articles claiming that the effect of antidepressants is similar to placebo. I've been on several different ones - going back to pre SSRI tricyclics like Doxepin - and they all seemed to me to have clear psychological and physiological impact, including side effects. I consider myself a rational-minded person, very much a "show me" sort who doesn't expect a miracle cure from western medicine or any other sort of medicine, so I don't believe I respond at all to placebo. If anything, I would say antidepressants are *very potent* drugs, which is why I was not at all surprised when the link between them and child suicide was discovered, as I had been arguing with my father for a long time about his putting my younger brother on antidepressants, purely based on my own personal experience that they are "big medicine" and not to be prescribed casually.

  On 9/2/2009 at 2:21 PM, lumpenprol said:

  On 9/2/2009 at 10:55 AM, xxx said:

This is easier said than done and if you keep crunching Celexa saying "this shit isn't gonna work anyway" it very well may not.

 

You're clearly well read on the subject but I've always been skeptical of articles claiming that the effect of antidepressants is similar to placebo. I've been on several different ones - going back to pre SSRI tricyclics like Doxepin - and they all seemed to me to have clear psychological and physiological impact, including side effects. I consider myself a rational-minded person, very much a "show me" sort who doesn't expect a miracle cure from western medicine or any other sort of medicine, so I don't believe I respond at all to placebo. If anything, I would say antidepressants are *very potent* drugs, which is why I was not at all surprised when the link between them and child suicide was discovered, as I had been arguing with my father for a long time about his putting my younger brother on antidepressants, purely based on my own personal experience that they are "big medicine" and not to be prescribed casually.

Anti-depressants undoubtedley are powerful drugs. But it is the actual 'anti-depressant' effect that some people feel is a placebo effect, rather than the effects taken as a whole.

  On 9/2/2009 at 4:15 PM, Lady kakapo said:

Anti-depressants undoubtedley are powerful drugs. But it is the actual 'anti-depressant' effect that some people feel is a placebo effect, rather than the effects taken as a whole.

lol what are you talking about?

Can you quote some sources here instead of just talking out your ass?

  On 9/2/2009 at 5:31 PM, thehauntingsoul said:

  On 9/2/2009 at 4:15 PM, Lady kakapo said:

Anti-depressants undoubtedley are powerful drugs. But it is the actual 'anti-depressant' effect that some people feel is a placebo effect, rather than the effects taken as a whole.

 

lol what are you talking about?

 

Can you quote some sources here instead of just talking out your ass?

  Lady kakapo said:

 

I'll be polite as I think you're simply misreading the post.

 

Let's take fluoxetine (Prozac) as an example. It is marketed and prescribed as an anti-depressant. It may have an anti-depressant 'effect'. It also has a number of well-documented 'side-effects' such as nausea. Higher doses are also prescribed in the treatment of OCD and Bulimia and other compulsive disorders, and therefore we can assume that it may have a pharmacological 'effect' that extends beyond a purely 'anti-depressant effect'.

 

There is no controversey that the side effect of nausea is in any way a placebo effect. However, there are a number of studies that would appear to show that the 'anti-depressant effect' of fluoxetine is in fact purely a placebo effect. Now read my original quote in the context of Lumpenprol's post. Admittedley it's a bit clunky, but the intended meaning should be clear.

 

I could quote some sources, but this is a music forum not a meeting of the BMA, and I'm perfectly capable of intelligent discourse without the use of google.

 

you just need some weeed mannn.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17959812&ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

(at low doses)

  On 9/2/2009 at 7:39 PM, kakapo said:

  Lady kakapo said:

I'll be polite as I think you're simply misreading the post.

 

Let's take fluoxetine (Prozac) as an example. It is marketed and prescribed as an anti-depressant. It may have an anti-depressant 'effect'. It also has a number of well-documented 'side-effects' such as nausea. Higher doses are also prescribed in the treatment of OCD and Bulimia and other compulsive disorders, and therefore we can assume that it may have a pharmacological 'effect' that extends beyond a purely 'anti-depressant effect'.

 

There is no controversey that the side effect of nausea is in any way a placebo effect. However, there are a number of studies that would appear to show that the 'anti-depressant effect' of fluoxetine is in fact purely a placebo effect. Now read my original quote in the context of Lumpenprol's post. Admittedley it's a bit clunky, but the intended meaning should be clear.

 

I could quote some sources, but this is a music forum not a meeting of the BMA, and I'm perfectly capable of intelligent discourse without the use of google.

 

Yeah I wasn't trying to be rude there, it just doesn't seem to make any sense. As far as my knowledge of medicine goes (admittedly not all THAT far) it seems like it would be a waste of time and money to research a drug like Prozac if the actual anti-depressive effect is purely placebo. Not only that, but why would they prescribe someone a drug which only has negative side effects and no actual mechanism of action?

You would think they would just prescribe a sugar pill or something if that were the case. I think the best way to explain those anomalies in the research would be that fluoxetine does not effect certain people the same way, in which case I agree that the placebo effect comes into play, but to assert that Prozac works simply by way of placebo effect is a highly unlikely idea.

Besides everything else I said, if this was in fact true then Prozac would be a huge scam and the media would have turned it completely upside down at this point.

also lol at you responding for your wife (I'm assuming) by way of quote. If she'll join you in posting here on Watmm, shes definitely a keeper

  On 9/1/2009 at 2:51 PM, Iain C said:

I respect Kakapo and his Mrs. for the LOLs and the level of intelligent discourse they bring to the board

  On 9/2/2009 at 9:03 PM, thehauntingsoul said:

  On 9/2/2009 at 7:39 PM, kakapo said:

  Lady kakapo said:

I'll be polite as I think you're simply misreading the post.

 

Let's take fluoxetine (Prozac) as an example. It is marketed and prescribed as an anti-depressant. It may have an anti-depressant 'effect'. It also has a number of well-documented 'side-effects' such as nausea. Higher doses are also prescribed in the treatment of OCD and Bulimia and other compulsive disorders, and therefore we can assume that it may have a pharmacological 'effect' that extends beyond a purely 'anti-depressant effect'.

 

There is no controversey that the side effect of nausea is in any way a placebo effect. However, there are a number of studies that would appear to show that the 'anti-depressant effect' of fluoxetine is in fact purely a placebo effect. Now read my original quote in the context of Lumpenprol's post. Admittedley it's a bit clunky, but the intended meaning should be clear.

 

I could quote some sources, but this is a music forum not a meeting of the BMA, and I'm perfectly capable of intelligent discourse without the use of google.

 

Yeah I wasn't trying to be rude there, it just doesn't seem to make any sense. As far as my knowledge of medicine goes (admittedly not all THAT far) it seems like it would be a waste of time and money to research a drug like Prozac if the actual anti-depressive effect is purely placebo. Not only that, but why would they prescribe someone a drug which only has negative side effects and no actual mechanism of action?

 

You would think they would just prescribe a sugar pill or something if that were the case. I think the best way to explain those anomalies in the research would be that fluoxetine does not effect certain people the same way, in which case I agree that the placebo effect comes into play, but to assert that Prozac works simply by way of placebo effect is a highly unlikely idea.

 

Besides everything else I said, if this was in fact true then Prozac would be a huge scam and the media would have turned it completely upside down at this point.

 

 

also lol at you responding for your wife (I'm assuming) by way of quote. If she'll join you in posting here on Watmm, shes definitely a keeper

She's not my wife.

I don't know if it was the case with fluoxetine, but it is often the case that the drug is developed either non-specifically or to treat something else and then trials show an un-intended side effect that is sometimes 'beneficial'. If you want to be more radical you can talk about pharmaceutical companies developing a non-specific drug, testing it and then 'inventing' whatever illness/condition/syndrome it seemingly treats. This goes back to my point earlier in the thread about companies having a vested interest in promoting the idea of clinical depression as something that is widespread amongst the general population, when there are far more effective treatments for mild depression (CBT, diet, the walking cure) that don't involve prescribing psychoactive drugs on a mass scale to the general public. But there's no money in telling someone to take a long walk each day. Pharmaceuticals are not nice people:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8234533.stm

Remember that Heroin (it's a brand name) was originally developed and marketed as cough mixture for children. Remember what they did to Ted Kennedy's sister. Remember Jospeh Goebbels.

The pharmaceutical companies promote it because they directly profit from it.

'Researchers' benefit because promoting the idea that society is on the verge of a collective nervous breakdown ensures them more funding.

Here in the UK doctors prescribe it because CBT is expensive and labour intensive, whereas a prescription is cheap and 'effective'.

In the UK at least the media have consistently 'gone after' Prozac and other anti-depressants. Do a search for prozac on the bbc site. Here's one example:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/hi/health/newsid_7264000/7264573.stm

Or for a more tabloid take on things have alook at the range of stories here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/search.html?searchPhrase=prozac

I'm not saying that anti-depressants are useless. Just that there's still some way to go in both the theory and treatment of depression.

  On 9/2/2009 at 9:10 PM, Iain C said:

  On 9/1/2009 at 2:51 PM, Iain C said:

I respect Kakapo and his Mrs. for the LOLs and the level of intelligent discourse they bring to the board

lol

I would also like to give my two useless pence and say that, for me at least, citalopram was far less effective for depression than the lovely orgasms it prevented me from achieving.

All I know is that I was drinking a couple big bottles of jack daniels a day. Not eating Lost 25 pounds. Could hardly sleep. I was in a deep depression last winter and I wanted to die. I took pristiq and clonopin for a few months and it lifted me out of the depression. It really worked, So fuck these conspiracy theorist assholes. They are getting in the way of people getting help. If something isn't working try something else. If you can't pay get samples. No amount of eating organic or taking nature walks was going to help. I tried all that.

  On 9/3/2009 at 12:00 AM, marf said:

All I know is that I was drinking a couple big bottles of jack daniels a day. Not eating Lost 25 pounds. Could hardly sleep. I was in a deep depression last winter and I wanted to die. I took pristiq and clonopin for a few months and it lifted me out of the depression. It really worked, So fuck these conspiracy theorist assholes. They are getting in the way of people getting help. If something isn't working try something else. If you can't pay get samples. No amount of eating organic or taking nature walks was going to help. I tried all that.

  kakapo said:

 

there are far more effective treatments for mild depression

 

I'm not saying that anti-depressants are useless

 

i'd just like to tom CRUISSSE in here and say: I KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY OF PSYCHOLOGY