Universe went back in time to sabotage LHC!!

I've been thinking about this the last few days and I've come to the conclusion that I want the LHC to slip up and create a black hole that tears this shithole planet apart.

Also, quantum particles behave differently when they're observed. Food for thought.

Also, I hate to break it to you, but the world is about to end.

It's been happening in cycles since forever, when we finally activate the LHC it's actually going to create the big bang. We'll be obliterated obviously, but the universe expanding from this won't even realise. Billions upon billions of years will go by until a species becomes intelligent enough to question its creation and in the process inadvertently creating some other tool to trigger the same thing - and it will start again.

lol, we've pretty much done enough shitty things to this planet of ours, destroying the entire universe by accident doesn't seem like that big a deal to me anymore

I can imagine some aliens floating around the milky way who've been keeping their eyes on us for most of our history just watching as a blackhole emerges from the little bluey green blob, wiping out most of the galaxy and them just commenting: "douchebags". And they'd be right!

  On 10/20/2009 at 7:12 PM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

  On 10/20/2009 at 4:06 PM, theSun said:

was that a real news article? where can i find any sort of scientific evidence to support their retarded people-from-the-future theory?

 

also, why in the fuck does everyone call the theoretical higgs boson the "god" particle? from what i understood, it's the particle that is responsible for mass itself, how does that make it supernatural in any way (that's what the media is implying)?

 

  Quote

The Higgs boson is often referred to as "the God particle" by the media, after the title of Leon Lederman's book, The God Particle: If the Universe Is the Answer, What Is the Question?. While use of this term may have contributed to increased media interest in particle physics and the Large Hadron Collider it is disliked by scientists as overstating the importance of the particle.

seems a lot like the Church is trying to propagate a certain idea. Or it just shows the influence they have on american media and popular science scene... and the mediocrity with which they're still trying to 'invent' their god, as the veils of knowledge reveal to the masses. pity.

"god particle", gotta give it to science for trying.

Boson

While you read that article, put sarcastic "air quotes" around everything that's a link.

  On 10/21/2009 at 9:29 AM, Obel said:

Also, I hate to break it to you, but the world is about to end.

 

It's been happening in cycles since forever, when we finally activate the LHC it's actually going to create the big bang. We'll be obliterated obviously, but the universe expanding from this won't even realise. Billions upon billions of years will go by until a species becomes intelligent enough to question its creation and in the process inadvertently creating some other tool to trigger the same thing - and it will start again.

emo much?

I dont think creating a black hole implies the destruction of the entire universe. Even if it did, it's not like we'd be the first civilization to experiment with such technology, so if it were so easy to fuck it up, it wouldve happened already.

  On 10/21/2009 at 3:11 AM, Hautlle said:

The Higgs Boson is the particle associated with the Higgs or quantum field due to wave/particle duality. This is the field from which everything arises. More in depth article here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-exactly-is-the-higgs

I understand the link between a field and a particle, but I don't understand why the boson has to exist because of duality.

I guess it will take a while before I'll know enough maths/physics to understand quantum mechanics fully.

edit: You wrote that everything arises from the Higgs field, but doesn't it interact with other particles that already exist in order to give them a mass?

And again, what does everything/everywhere means in this context?

Um... I wasn't being serious.

  On 10/21/2009 at 4:47 PM, EDGEY said:

While you read that article, put sarcastic "air quotes" around everything that's a link.

lol

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

well it's not going to be unobservable if it exists at all. in fact, if something is unobservable (thru direct and indirect observation) it does not exist.

actually that isnt true. they didnt think the world wasnt flat for a long time, they couldnt prove that it was flat...but they thought it was anyway because that made more sense to them. so certainly just because something is unobservable to you doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

how is it everywhere at once?

because it is everything, and suddenly the impossible idea of something being everything disappears

  On 10/21/2009 at 6:50 PM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

  On 10/21/2009 at 3:11 AM, Hautlle said:

The Higgs Boson is the particle associated with the Higgs or quantum field due to wave/particle duality. This is the field from which everything arises. More in depth article here: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=what-exactly-is-the-higgs

I understand the link between a field and a particle, but I don't understand why the boson has to exist because of duality.

I guess it will take a while before I'll know enough maths/physics to understand quantum mechanics fully.

 

edit: You wrote that everything arises from the Higgs field, but doesn't it interact with other particles that already exist in order to give them a mass?

And again, what does everything/everywhere means in this context?

Well, firstly I am in no way a physicist, and I don't claim to completely understand it. I've just read up on it a lot out of interest in the LHC. From what I know they expect it to exist because of duality in the same way the light and other quantum particles behave as a particle or wave depending on the observer (as shown by the double slit experiment)

As far as the interactions, I don't know enough to explain it. Here is a description from " NOVA website:

  Quote

According to the hypothesis, the Higgs field slows down the weak gauge bosons, which would otherwise travel at the speed of light. This slowing down gives the bosons an effective mass. At high enough temperatures, the effects of the Higgs field disappear, allowing the weak gauge bosons to travel at the speed of light and to become massless.

Everything every where means exactly the way it sounds. It is omnipresent, everywhere at once.

I think it's important to remember that this is all just theory. Sure the math says we should expect to see this particle, but it may not even exist, so in reality this is nothing but speculation.

  On 11/12/2009 at 3:49 PM, ET said:

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

well it's not going to be unobservable if it exists at all. in fact, if something is unobservable (thru direct and indirect observation) it does not exist.

 

actually that isnt true. they didnt think the world wasnt flat for a long time, they couldnt prove that it was flat...but they thought it was anyway because that made more sense to them. so certainly just because something is unobservable to you doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

i think i misspoke, which is easy in these conversations. if something is unobservable, it isn't proven to not exist, that is simply the only scientific conclusion that can be derived from the data. the real question is if we are testing the right things that will lead us to the correct conclusions (ones that can be retested) and thus give us an accurate picture of our own environment. in the case of the world being flat, they were not asking the right questions, not taking the right measurements and as a result, came up with the wrong conclusions. FYI by the time socrates was poisoned, serious astronomers knew the earth was a sphere anyway, so it's not like you need to launch a satellite and look at the pics to know the shape of the earth.

  Quote

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

how is it everywhere at once?

 

because it is everything, and suddenly the impossible idea of something being everything disappears

this is stupid.

  On 11/12/2009 at 6:56 PM, theSun said:

  On 11/12/2009 at 3:49 PM, ET said:

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

well it's not going to be unobservable if it exists at all. in fact, if something is unobservable (thru direct and indirect observation) it does not exist.

 

actually that isnt true. they didnt think the world wasnt flat for a long time, they couldnt prove that it was flat...but they thought it was anyway because that made more sense to them. so certainly just because something is unobservable to you doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

 

i think i misspoke, which is easy in these conversations. if something is unobservable, it isn't proven to not exist, that is simply the only scientific conclusion that can be derived from the data. the real question is if we are testing the right things that will lead us to the correct conclusions (ones that can be retested) and thus give us an accurate picture of our own environment. in the case of the world being flat, they were not asking the right questions, not taking the right measurements and as a result, came up with the wrong conclusions. FYI by the time socrates was poisoned, serious astronomers knew the earth was a sphere anyway, so it's not like you need to launch a satellite and look at the pics to know the shape of the earth.

  Quote

  On 10/20/2009 at 8:27 PM, theSun said:

how is it everywhere at once?

 

because it is everything, and suddenly the impossible idea of something being everything disappears

 

this is stupid.

Good points theSun, you're right on. ET, do you understand basic scientific method? Scientists aren't out to prove things. If you try to use that word in any lab you'll quickly be told the dangers of it's use. Science can only interpret the data and use it to demonstrate the current model of how our Universe works. Also, I don't think it's technically possible to prove that something does not exist, in the end all you can say is that current data suggests something does not exist. ET is always trying to toss these metaphysical explanations in on things, when in reality they don't have much of a connection to the sciences. They are metaphysical (after physical) they can't be studied using scientific method and are therefore outside of science's spectrum.

i'll barge in with a question here. i am under the impression that these high-energy physics experiments are more about observing the indirect effects of unobservable particles, sort of like studying the ripples on the water surface without having seen the stone that caused them and from that data try to understand how the stone looks and works. is this a correct assumption?

i hope the LHC experiment will show something totally weird and unexpected that will make them throw out the current particle models and start from scratch. would be awesome.

  On 11/12/2009 at 8:25 PM, azatoth said:

i'll barge in with a question here. i am under the impression that these high-energy physics experiments are more about observing the indirect effects of unobservable particles, sort of like studying the ripples on the water surface without having seen the stone that caused them and from that data try to understand how the stone looks and works. is this a correct assumption?

Yes, that is true. Quarks form Hadrons. Quarks actually have no definable structure, and as far as I know are only energy?? So basically we can only observe the hadrons to see what's going on.

  Quote

i hope the LHC experiment will show something totally weird and unexpected that will make them throw out the current particle models and start from scratch. would be awesome.

I actually read a quote from a physicist saying that even if they found nothing that would be interesting because we would have to re-evaluate what we think know. There are some alternative theories on the Higss-Boson wiki and there is a Higgsless model, but idk anything about those.

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

Well, firstly I am in no way a physicist, and I don't claim to completely understand it. I've just read up on it a lot out of interest in the LHC. From what I know they expect it to exist because of duality in the same way the light and other quantum particles behave as a particle or wave depending on the observer (as shown by the double slit experiment)

So duality states that each particle is also a field?

If that's true I might understand why physicists created the Higgs boson.

Since we observe that particles aren't mass-less, we infer that something associates mass to each particle; this is the Higgs field. Furthermore, because of duality, the field is also a boson (?).

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

As far as the interactions, I don't know enough to explain it. Here is a description from " NOVA website:

  Quote

According to the hypothesis, the Higgs field slows down the weak gauge bosons, which would otherwise travel at the speed of light. This slowing down gives the bosons an effective mass. At high enough temperatures, the effects of the Higgs field disappear, allowing the weak gauge bosons to travel at the speed of light and to become massless.

Bosons are the particles that explain forces such as the Gravitron, Photon, and Gluon. You are right in that it only interacts with other particles, but with out the field these other particles would just be flying around @ light speed and we wouldn't have the fundamental forces.

I wonder what's the link between nuclear fusion and the Higgs boson, because, according to that extract, the only particles affected by the Higgs field are weak boson, which play a fundamental role in the process.

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

Everything every where means exactly the way it sounds. It is omnipresent, everywhere at once.

I still don't understand this. I'm quite sure that if we observed that the field disappears at 'high enough' temperatures, there must be places in the universe (=everywhere) hot enough where the boson can't interact with particles (weak bosons?). How can you say it's everywhere at once if you can't observe its effects somewhere?

  On 11/14/2009 at 4:10 PM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

Well, firstly I am in no way a physicist, and I don't claim to completely understand it. I've just read up on it a lot out of interest in the LHC. From what I know they expect it to exist because of duality in the same way the light and other quantum particles behave as a particle or wave depending on the observer (as shown by the double slit experiment)

 

So duality states that each particle is also a field?

 

If that's true I might understand why physicists created the Higgs boson.

Since we observe that particles aren't mass-less, we infer that something associates mass to each particle; this is the Higgs field. Furthermore, because of duality, the field is also a boson (?).

Well, it doesn't really say that each particle is a field. Basically all energy can exhibit wave-like properties and particle-like properties. The Wave-particle duality wiki explains all this far better than I ever could. I think this also in a way extends to quantum superposition since a energy exists in all possible states until it is observed. The problem there though is by observing something we actually change it which relates to the uncertainty principle.

  On 11/14/2009 at 4:10 PM, Super lurker ultra V12 said:

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

As far as the interactions, I don't know enough to explain it. Here is a description from " NOVA website:

  Quote

According to the hypothesis, the Higgs field slows down the weak gauge bosons, which would otherwise travel at the speed of light. This slowing down gives the bosons an effective mass. At high enough temperatures, the effects of the Higgs field disappear, allowing the weak gauge bosons to travel at the speed of light and to become massless.

Bosons are the particles that explain forces such as the Gravitron, Photon, and Gluon. You are right in that it only interacts with other particles, but with out the field these other particles would just be flying around @ light speed and we wouldn't have the fundamental forces.

 

I wonder what's the link between nuclear fusion and the Higgs boson, because, according to that extract, the only particles affected by the Higgs field are weak boson, which play a fundamental role in the process.

 

  On 11/12/2009 at 5:39 PM, Hautlle said:

Everything every where means exactly the way it sounds. It is omnipresent, everywhere at once.

 

I still don't understand this. I'm quite sure that if we observed that the field disappears at 'high enough' temperatures, there must be places in the universe (=everywhere) hot enough where the boson can't interact with particles (weak bosons?). How can you say it's everywhere at once if you can't observe its effects somewhere?

I think this relates more to the energy of a system. At higher temperatures (energies) perhaps the Higgs field is too weak to have a clear effect on the bosons, or perhaps the bosons are at a higher energy state and above the effects of the field? - That is pure uneducated speculation on my part though as I have no idea, definitely something to look into though.

I feel like I just brought more questions than answers lol

Damn, I just stumbled on this article saying that the LHC could be back up in a couple of weeks.

It had links to some other really good articles including this one which is a physicist kinda running down all this stuff.

Higgs Field explanation:

  Quote

Fields theory imagines that at some fundamental level, at highest energies all particles are essentially interacting points which have zero mass, and that somehow something created a disparity, and that was the Higgs field. The Higgs field is just something that fills up all of space, and it has a free parameter kind of like a roulette wheel that can spin in any direction.

 

Somehow when the temperature of the universe cooled beyond a certain amount there was a phase transition, and the Higgs field became locked in one direction, shared by the entire Higgs field across space in lockstep. Once the Higgs field locked into that phase, first of all that set the lowest energy of the universe, and secondly that energy was translated into a

mass which was given to certain particles. These were particles that interacted with the Higgs field, and these included the W and Z bosons but also the quarks and leptons that make up matter. These acquired mass, and it explains why everything around us except for photons has mass.

 

And just like ice freezing into patterns, the universe froze into certain patterns, and these patterns meant the acquisition of mass by certain particles. The Higgs that scientists are looking for is kind of a remnant of the original Higgs field. It’s kind of a leftover, a relic.

That's some wild shit man. It's nice to see this kind of simplification of an idea. I've never heard it actually explained out, only what I could induce from reading.

Also goes on to talk about other things we could find, future of colliders, and some other stuff.

man, it feels like quantum mechanics is just becoming more and more convoluted as they search for simplification.

They've been colliding shit, man. And we're all still alive, and to the best of my knowledge Austria is still there.

How long 'til they get information from the debris?

there are plenty of other colliders in the world which are going at around the same power.. i think it's only when they crank it up to full around 2011, they said, that things will get a lil unpredictable.

  On 11/24/2009 at 4:47 PM, mafted said:

there are plenty of other colliders in the world which are going at around the same power.. i think it's only when they crank it up to full around 2011, they said, that things will get a lil unpredictable.

yes and once they've managed colliding particles at the max power it will take some time to analyze all the huge amounts of data they've collected before any findings are published.