I got lost in harmonics

I got lost in harmonics as I have the impression that a tune without a great melody is worthless

but there is no light at the end of the tunnel

the more I find out about it the more complex it gets and the more boring the melodies sound

so I decided to take piano lessons and the teacher told me "play child music at the beginning" it was so frustrating as I was into much more advanced stuff like this at the time and it felt so much like a pisstake. I wanted him to be somebody that kind of looks at my arrangements and gives me tips but he didn't and just started his standard "new piano student" stuff so I left after 5 lessons.

currently I received a tip from some concert pianist living next to my flat. she told me about a guy who gives harmonic lessons for classical composers but I am scared that the mess will continue like last time.

do you think its absolutely necessary to know some instrument very well to write epic melodies or do you have a way to deal with harmonics on a theoretical level that sufficient enough to reach the goal?

  On 3/18/2010 at 11:46 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

my melodies are simple and boring, it frustrates me that I can easily play a melody such as the leads in slip or eggshell (ae) on a keyboard and it seems so simple, but I can never make them myself.

 

but thats basically what you do when you know a instrument very well don't you?

You just take melodies from songs you know to play and alter them until they are the way you want them and then call this "a new song"

so maybe I should stick to this ...

ummmz I dunno, making powerful melodies that cant the exact point you want to get a crossed or even just juicy melodies in general is something I don't really think can be taught besides the simple things like.. In major scales the note 2 whole steps down always seems like the most euphoric transition etc. small little things

Most great melodies only have 2 or 3 power dominate notes from most of what I've noticed that I've made and heard, those that really get a hold of you are at the most 4 power notes transitioning and looping in a groove with variances thrown in to taste.

Its like you should be able to write the focus of the melody on a bass like instrument and just 2 3 or 4 notes to sound really great with perfect groove and flow. Just start that minimally and then when you have a this really simple great bassish melodic focus you just follow that and notes that compliment or exaggerate the focus melodic groove.

I'm not really very technically knowledgeable so forgive my description, but I dunno getting the melodies I want has never really been much of a problem, where getting the percussion accents I wanted took a loooong time.

i dont know shit about music. i play until i think what i have sounds cool, then i lay it down. then i play something over that and i make sure it "goes." if you can't tell whether or not it goes, then i would think you could benefit from studying music theory. it definitely couldnt hurt. i had a similar experience with piano as you did when i was a lot younger. got really bored of playing "camptown races" when i was figuring out more complex stuff on my own, so i quit. i have a limited knowledge of guitar. it would help a lot of i was much better. now i have a drum kit, it literally arrived yesterday. i hope that i get way better at that than i am at guitar.

anyway, to answer your question, i think writing epic melodies comes from two types of people-- those that have an innate understanding of harmonics and those that are clasically trained. and i guess there are plenty of combos of both. but if you dont have anything at all to work with from pool A, then i would think some degree of pool B is indeed necessary.

do you have any of your tunes up online?

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:09 PM, Fred McGriff said:

i dont know shit about music. i play until i think what i have sounds cool, then i lay it down. then i play something over that and i make sure it "goes." if you can't tell whether or not it goes, then i would think you could benefit from studying music theory. it definitely couldnt hurt. i had a similar experience with piano as you did when i was a lot younger. got really bored of playing "camptown races" when i was figuring out more complex stuff on my own, so i quit. i have a limited knowledge of guitar. it would help a lot of i was much better. now i have a drum kit, it literally arrived yesterday. i hope that i get way better at that than i am at guitar.

still as you say you don't really know what you are doing I have the impression that you can archive what you want to - like the mood you want and you don't mess around randomly

do you just jam around with the guitar playing songs you know altering the scales until you are where you want to be?

I don't like to mess around until it kind of sounds right I want to really lets say make a happy tune and in a certain way and then I want it to be happy - not because of try and error but because of planing. this is where harmonics come into play but all of the stuff I was doing from scratch with it recently sounds like some plain meaningless dance-floor stuff

only when I use other songs as a basis I get somewhere

I own these really complex books about harmonics but they are not really helpful (too much away from real songwriting)

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:09 PM, Fred McGriff said:

anyway, to answer your question, i think writing epic melodies comes from two types of people-- those that have an innate understanding of harmonics and those that are clasically trained. and i guess there are plenty of combos of both. but if you dont have anything at all to work with from pool A, then i would think some degree of pool B is indeed necessary.

 

do you have any of your tunes up online?

 

my last tune is up here: http://soundcloud.com/jochenheym/pentasual-5-1-surround-liveact-for-5-projectors

it took me about a year to create it and afterwards I was so much into all this harmonics that I did not create a new song since then as I was not able to write good melodies like for example you, eod, wisp or End Iffy I Roll do.

I've been playing the piano for six years now, but that doesn't really help me at all. Just stop thinking about what you're doing.. that's pretty much the only advice I've got. Sorry

edit: holy shit you mentioned me in the same sentence as Wisp

Sometimes it's not just about the notes your playing, it's about the sound you're using. That's at least what I've experienced. With the right synth/effect, you can make anything sound really "epic".

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:58 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

I've been playing the piano for six years now, but that doesn't really help me at all. Just stop thinking about what you're doing.. that's pretty much the only advice I've got. Sorry

 

edit: holy shit you mentioned me in the same sentence as Wisp

so how do you start actually? do you just pick some scales and start jamming? or completely random? or you start with good synthesis?

I am currently planning to create melodies on piano first as this is as neutral as possible and do the synthesis later with the purpose to increase the given mood by the synthesis

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:37 PM, o00o said:

my last tune is up here: http://soundcloud.com/jochenheym/pentasual-5-1-surround-liveact-for-5-projectors

 

it took me about a year to create it and afterwards I was so much into all this harmonics that I did not create a new song since then as I was not able to write good melodies like for example you, eod, wisp or End Iffy I Roll do.

Taking that piece as an example, my response would be pretty much the same as what I was saying earlier but a lil more refined. (Which is what you need to do)((refine your melodic ideas into their simplest form and optimize))

Take any of the melodies in that song (or lack there of)((just kidding, I kid, I kid):

figure out the 2,3 or 4 most dominate notes in the melody. Find their best placing in the groove and if working with their placement rhythmically isn't enough to make your melody much more pleasing. Start moving around those notes one at a time until your satisfied))

Again I believe and pretty well think I know that at the core great melodies are extremely simple in their infrastructure. Once you lay down a concrete foundation you can then make the house as complex you want but the foundation should not deviate too strongly even with extreme weather.

  On 3/18/2010 at 4:33 PM, Blanket Fort Collapse said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:37 PM, o00o said:

my last tune is up here: http://soundcloud.com/jochenheym/pentasual-5-1-surround-liveact-for-5-projectors

 

it took me about a year to create it and afterwards I was so much into all this harmonics that I did not create a new song since then as I was not able to write good melodies like for example you, eod, wisp or End Iffy I Roll do.

 

Taking that piece as an example, my response would be pretty much the same as what I was saying earlier but a lil more refined. (Which is what you need to do)((refine your melodic ideas into their simplest form and optimize))

 

Take any of the melodies in that song (or lack there of)((just kidding, I kid, I kid):

figure out the 2,3 or 4 most dominate notes in the melody. Find their best placing in the groove and if working with their placement rhythmically isn't enough to make your melody much more pleasing. Start moving around those notes one at a time until your satisfied))

 

Again I believe and pretty well think I know that at the core great melodies are extremely simple in their infrastructure. Once you lay down a concrete foundation you can then make the house as complex you want but the foundation should not deviate too strongly even with extreme weather.

thats a really great idea to increase the mood by deletion of the notes that are just not as intense enough and expanding the ones that do work

sure this is totally obvious but exactly the kind of feedback I need

its simple stuff I need: simple working tips

i generally find it easy but i love the environment of the keys and finding out how different intervals relate to one another. its important to make sure everything works together

i also can't give you any advice because i'm shit at writing this stuff down, i would have to write several pages..

maybe if you want to skype i can help you there?

  On 3/18/2010 at 5:05 PM, chimera slot mom said:

i generally find it easy but i love the environment of the keys and finding out how different intervals relate to one another. its important to make sure everything works together

 

i also can't give you any advice because i'm shit at writing this stuff down, i would have to write several pages..

 

maybe if you want to skype i can help you there?

sure add me if you like: o0000o

so you jam around in the circle of fifths or do you play scales you know? I had the impression that if you stay in scales all the time it sounds boring but maybe I am just not altering them enough

I know that you're looking more for theory-based responses, but... have you tried just jamming for a few minutes? Get your creative juices flowing and see what happens. You may be surprised.

  On 3/18/2010 at 5:28 PM, Sprigg said:

I know that you're looking more for theory-based responses, but... have you tried just jamming for a few minutes? Get your creative juices flowing and see what happens. You may be surprised.

sure but this is very random (as I don't have advanced playing skills) and it takes ages to get to some semi nice results ...

but I get your point to maybe just let go and make music instead of thinking about it all the time...

I played trumpet for seven years in school, but have no theory or technical experience, and I make stuff that satisfies me.

Sometimes, I just screw around and try new sounds out, other times I get a melody in my head and attempt to put it into the computer. That usually leads to a drum pattern and then I start tweaking and adding things, and it just kinda happens. Next thing I know, I have two minutes of win (well, what I consider win. It's probably complete shit but I like it.).

  On 3/18/2010 at 4:33 PM, o00o said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:58 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

I've been playing the piano for six years now, but that doesn't really help me at all. Just stop thinking about what you're doing.. that's pretty much the only advice I've got. Sorry

 

edit: holy shit you mentioned me in the same sentence as Wisp

 

so how do you start actually? do you just pick some scales and start jamming? or completely random? or you start with good synthesis?

 

I am currently planning to create melodies on piano first as this is as neutral as possible and do the synthesis later with the purpose to increase the given mood by the synthesis

It's pretty much completely random. You should get yourself a cheap midi-keyboard (if you don't already have one). That'll help you alot.

  On 3/18/2010 at 6:41 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 4:33 PM, o00o said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:58 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

I've been playing the piano for six years now, but that doesn't really help me at all. Just stop thinking about what you're doing.. that's pretty much the only advice I've got. Sorry

 

edit: holy shit you mentioned me in the same sentence as Wisp

 

so how do you start actually? do you just pick some scales and start jamming? or completely random? or you start with good synthesis?

 

I am currently planning to create melodies on piano first as this is as neutral as possible and do the synthesis later with the purpose to increase the given mood by the synthesis

It's pretty much completely random. You should get yourself a cheap midi-keyboard (if you don't already have one). That'll help you alot.

but your songs have a very harmonic solid structured basis based on scales that has nothing to do with randomness - how does that make sense in connection to what you say?

Is it because you just do these things subconsciously as they are on your mind because of the piano lessons?

there's a lot of subtle genius being suggested in this thread.

i agree with the 'random' approach, but i'd add that for me, it's only random in the sense that i'm not picking out the next notes to play based on rules of theory or harmony. i do have a pretty good understanding of the keyboard at this stage, and that helps guide me in the right direction, but i'm fully convinced that being a good composer is as much about being a good FILTER as anything else. that is to say, you can play 10 different 'melodies' consisting of five notes each that are completely random. where the 'talent' comes in is being able to recognise and identify which of those is the most moving (or perhaps more accurately, is most in line with the emotional gist of the song - or even generates an emotional or musical response that inspires you.)

the only thing about this method that improves over time is the likelihood that your 'random' melodies will sound good as you begin to become more familiar with intervals and harmonic associations. even these days when i'm composing melodies, i'll literally jab a random key with my eyes closed just to experiment with something that i'm not predisposed to. this becomes especially helpful as you begin to form 'habits' and adopt familiar transitions you fall back on (which is one of the things i don't particularly like about theory heads - too many things to 'run home' to when getting stuck, but that's just my opinion - that methodology works well for a lot of people.)

pretty much any composer of any kind i've ever worked with uses some variation of the above concept; even those who are die-hard theory zealots.

i've soapboxed about my feelings on theory enough in these forums, but i still believe that at the end of the day, music is a completely innate, emotional enterprise. theory is an attempt to describe art with mathematics, and while the fundamentals of music are most definitely mathematical, the practice of it is anything but (in my opinion.) if you study the nuances of a sculptor who is considered genius, and break down his methods, documenting them furiously, then yes - you will likely be able to create a sculpture of similar quality - but by doing it in such a scientific way, you've evaporated the essence and the soul of the art.

ok i'm rambling.

c

  On 3/18/2010 at 6:50 PM, o00o said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 6:41 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 4:33 PM, o00o said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 3:58 PM, Bewarethefriendlyfoil said:

I've been playing the piano for six years now, but that doesn't really help me at all. Just stop thinking about what you're doing.. that's pretty much the only advice I've got. Sorry

 

edit: holy shit you mentioned me in the same sentence as Wisp

 

so how do you start actually? do you just pick some scales and start jamming? or completely random? or you start with good synthesis?

 

I am currently planning to create melodies on piano first as this is as neutral as possible and do the synthesis later with the purpose to increase the given mood by the synthesis

It's pretty much completely random. You should get yourself a cheap midi-keyboard (if you don't already have one). That'll help you alot.

 

but your songs have a very harmonic solid structured basis based on scales that has nothing to do with randomness - how does that make sense in connection to what you say?

 

Is it because you just do these things subconsciously as they are on your mind because of the piano lessons?

I don't know.

But really, get a midi-keyboard. It WILL help you alot.

edit: just read the post above me. He's alot better at explaining things than I am!

  On 3/18/2010 at 5:12 PM, o00o said:

  On 3/18/2010 at 5:05 PM, chimera slot mom said:

i generally find it easy but i love the environment of the keys and finding out how different intervals relate to one another. its important to make sure everything works together

 

i also can't give you any advice because i'm shit at writing this stuff down, i would have to write several pages..

 

maybe if you want to skype i can help you there?

 

sure add me if you like: o0000o

 

so you jam around in the circle of fifths or do you play scales you know? I had the impression that if you stay in scales all the time it sounds boring but maybe I am just not altering them enough

I had a period when all I did was play scales. I had a period where all I did was read theory and fuck around with the circle of fifths.

Now, the first thing I do is LISTEN. I play something, I listen. What should come next? How do I find the key that corresponds with that feel?

Anything can come next... I like playing with chromatics, I like finding those odd tones and making them work.. It's not that hard mainly because I think my experience with scales and fifths have given me a sixth sense for what certain keys do to your harmony. The fifths play a big part here, deliberate or not, because there's alot of math in this. Not the obnoxious kind, but in the sense of harmonic patterns that correlate to eachother.

It's mostly an intuitive process. I don't think too much about it, but I analyze how I respond to every little change, and whether it is a direction I want to go in..

I think that kind of playful confidence requires a bit of understanding and experience with some of the rules, but when it comes to creating, there are no rules. You can do absolutely anything and make it work, but I think you have to establish a theme or focal point within the chaos of unlimited musical potential.. So that's mostly what I do. I play around and try to find that theme, establish order out of the chaos, then explore that theme further. It sounds much more difficult than it really is, but I can't say how well it would work for you. I've always been a fan of harmony, so it's where I've developed most. Don't ask me about drumwork or badass compression.

The more I play, the more I realize you can make absolutely retarded passages and still make them work. There's always a way, there are no hidden tones. There's always that one key, whether it is in unison or whether it is a response, that establishes a theme you like.

A big key to harmony and melody is the call and response. Any chord can be anything you can imagine depending on what you put next to it.

Scales are boring when they become a rule. They represent keys that together depict a clear theme, so they make things easier for you. But they don't help you when you want to go beyond that, you have to play around alot on your own and discover the changes you can make. Something can be great for 4 bars, then you can change a few keys and go against that initial passage, but it will sound good and establish the meaning of the track further. The sky's the limit so it's difficult for me to confuse you further without understanding what exactly it is you want to achieve.

oh p.s. before i catch up with everyone's thoughts on this thread, i want to just point out that if i compose a tune on the piano/keyboard, it's total shit. i only compose decent melodies on the guitar. this might have something to do with the layout of the keyboard vs the layout of the fretboard.

  On 3/18/2010 at 7:07 PM, maus said:

i agree with the 'random' approach, but i'd add that for me, it's only random in the sense that i'm not picking out the next notes to play based on rules of theory or harmony. i do have a pretty good understanding of the keyboard at this stage, and that helps guide me in the right direction, but i'm fully convinced that being a good composer is as much about being a good FILTER as anything else. that is to say, you can play 10 different 'melodies' consisting of five notes each that are completely random. where the 'talent' comes in is being able to recognise and identify which of those is the most moving (or perhaps more accurately, is most in line with the emotional gist of the song - or even generates an emotional or musical response that inspires you.)

 

the only thing about this method that improves over time is the likelihood that your 'random' melodies will sound good as you begin to become more familiar with intervals and harmonic associations. even these days when i'm composing melodies, i'll literally jab a random key with my eyes closed just to experiment with something that i'm not predisposed to. this becomes especially helpful as you begin to form 'habits' and adopt familiar transitions you fall back on (which is one of the things i don't particularly like about theory heads - too many things to 'run home' to when getting stuck, but that's just my opinion - that methodology works well for a lot of people.)

 

pretty much any composer of any kind i've ever worked with uses some variation of the above concept; even those who are die-hard theory zealots.

 

i still believe that at the end of the day, music is a completely innate, emotional enterprise. theory is an attempt to describe art with mathematics, and while the fundamentals of music are most definitely mathematical, the practice of it is anything but (in my opinion.) if you study the nuances of a sculptor who is considered genius, and break down his methods, documenting them furiously, then yes - you will likely be able to create a sculpture of similar quality - but by doing it in such a scientific way, you've evaporated the essence and the soul of the art.

QFT, Pretty much the main reason I came back to this thread first thing was I thinking today that I should add my humble 2 cents & also suggest that you don't get to concerned with theory, math and technicality in your approach. Just go back to the basic's like I was saying and learn how to make the melodies you want with a MAX of 6 notes to start off with. Reminds me of when I was a teenager skating and I spent way too much time trying to skip ahead and learn how to 360 flip before I had a really good ollie. Get back to the basics and if you focus on getting comfortable with getting the emotions you desire with a very simplistic base foundation approach: Soon you will become a master of teh melodic universe.

(I have strongly agreed with 96.69% of the relevantly small amount of strong opinion's I've seen Maus post.) ((maybe at some point I will realize Maus is a complete ricky retardo but so far I would confidently vouch to trust in teh way he/she/tranny/granny thinks))

  On 3/19/2010 at 4:03 AM, Fred McGriff said:

oh p.s. before i catch up with everyone's thoughts on this thread, i want to just point out that if i compose a tune on the piano/keyboard, it's total shit. i only compose decent melodies on the guitar. this might have something to do with the layout of the keyboard vs the layout of the fretboard.

I wouldn't say the same anymore but at some points I have felt the exact same way. So yeah take from this point that you might want to figure out what you think the absolute best instrument/method for you is most comfortable in creating your melodic structures.

Go to a few music stores, play a bunch of different instruments, midi controllers, guitars, tinkle on a piano, violin.. hell get bill clinton on a saxophone (even if you see instruments you don't really know how to approach) and try to imagine if you might eventually become more comfortable with a particular approach you didn't really ever think would be your go to melody maker.

I would start by learning how to spell chords (Example: Eb minor 7 chord = Eb, Gb, Bb, Db). Learn what constitutes, a major chord, minor, augmented, and diminished chord. This way you will be able to give definition to the sounds you are hearing. From there, pick a song you admire, figure out of the chord progression and the melody by ear. From there go through each note of the melody and ask yourself "Where does this note stand in relation to the current chord?" Is the note the major 3rd of a chord? Is it a b7th? Does the melody outline the basic triad of the chord, or does it not touch it at all and instead play with the tensions (9th, 11th, b5th, etc...). Go through a few songs, find progressions that you enjoy and practice playing your own notes over them. You're right to try this on the piano since it has amazing polyphony and will allow you to easily explore various harmonic relations.

Chimera has a lot of good advice to offer, btw.

When it comes to melodies I find it helps sometimes to vocalize it. Sort of like "da - da - da da daaaa".