this whole American healthcare thing

lol i love the absolutely fake argument of saying 'but the quaity of care will be terrible!!' , in theory even if that was true (even though its a childish gross exaggeration) at the very least people would have the fucking OPTION to get a free health checkup. right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums. at the very least republican talking points should make some basic sense, but when they make absolutely no sense and people parrot them i have to have a laugh

  On 3/19/2010 at 6:52 PM, Awepittance said:

i think the whole idea that single payer healthcare is too expensive for our country does not hold water. US military bases being in over 50 countries in the world and how those are just accepted as 'necessary'. The overwhelming majority of fiscal conservatives would rather see most of the government's budget go into endless military endeavors , they seem to have no problems or complaints about that money being spent. In this respect most republicans who claim to be fiscally conservative are pretty much just straight up liars/hypocrites

 

but the whole mainstream 'framed' debate between republicans and democrats right now is almost totally devoid of actual fact or logic.

 

republicans say the healthcare bill is a 'government giveaway' and 'socialism' unfortunately it's very far away from either of these

democrats say forcing americans to buy private health insurance is a 'step in the right direction' and don't seem to care that they spent a year not only taking away single payer as a possible outcome but also totally scrapping the public option.

 

it makes me really frustrated to see almost no truthful debate about this subject, almost all the democrats even their supporters have totally capitulated in cowardice to the idea that 'well its a step in the right direction, we spent a whole year we gotta pass something'.

 

my personal belief is that Obama knows in his heart that he fucked up bigtime, he WAS a supporter of single payer healthcare at one time.

but i think he knows that since he's wasted an entire year of his presidency working on this bill that he better pass SOMETHING or else he's going to have to fight tooth and nail in the 2012 elections for a 2nd term. So right now it's more about keeping him electable (as well as the democrats in power) than it is about passing anything meaningful or progressive

 

edit: democrats/liberals have completely lost their ability (did they ever have it?) to make strong demands and use THAT as a bargaining chip for getting what they want.

want single payer healthcare? The best strategy to get it is to demand it and not back down until the other side concedes in some part to your demands. If you back down immediately with no concessions you're going to be steam rolled over every time and makes you look impotent to everyone watching.

We are in total agreement.

so people have to explicitly pay x% of their income per month towards this, or is it like they uk where the whole thing is implicitly taken out of the taxes we pay (income tax etc etc)?

but what if you're long time unemployed, or a single mother looking after 4 kids, etc--are you forced to take out private health care then?

I hate the fucking assholes that don't want Universal Health care ..these idiots would rather save 2 dollars every week that see a fellow human being get medical help.

Fuck you TEABAGGERS !!!

That being said , The bill Obama is proposing is kind of weird.

  On 3/19/2010 at 11:48 PM, inteeliguntdesign said:

so people have to explicitly pay x% of their income per month towards this, or is it like they uk where the whole thing is implicitly taken out of the taxes we pay (income tax etc etc)?

 

but what if you're long time unemployed, or a single mother looking after 4 kids, etc--are you forced to take out private health care then?

to clarify, healthcare in the uk isn't taken out of taxes, it's taken out of a seperate "tax" called national insurance, which is a %age of income with varying rate bands depending on income.

the unemployed in the uk are entitled to things like healthcare, state pension and jobseekers allowance, depending on how much national insurance they've paid in the past, i believe. i may be wrong there.

the self-employed pay a different national insurance (employed are type 1 for a fixed amount and 3 for a top-up, self employed are type 2, fuck knows who type 4 are).

  On 3/19/2010 at 11:54 PM, margaret thatcher said:

  On 3/19/2010 at 11:48 PM, inteeliguntdesign said:

so people have to explicitly pay x% of their income per month towards this, or is it like they uk where the whole thing is implicitly taken out of the taxes we pay (income tax etc etc)?

 

but what if you're long time unemployed, or a single mother looking after 4 kids, etc--are you forced to take out private health care then?

the unemployed in the uk are entitled to things like healthcare, state pension and jobseekers allowance, depending on how much national insurance they've paid in the past, i believe. i may be wrong there.

i'm not sure about state pension, but i'm sure healthcare doesn't depend on how much NI you've paid. never heard of anyone being declined any treatment because they've not paid enough NI in the past, or anyone receiving extra because of greater contributions.

i'm guessing the american system is like the uk one, but with those in employment having to pay insurance to a private healthcare supplier, and allowing those who cant pay that to get it for free?

  On 3/19/2010 at 7:16 PM, joshuatxuk said:

Personally, I hope this thing passes, just to get more regulation in place. I believe in private care over single-payer, but it's worthless if even hard-working middle class people can't purchase it because of pre-existing conditions or have to move to other states because of gaping differences in coverage laws between states.

 

you know, a lot of poor people are hard working. They just dont get paid as much. Poor people are not always the lazy people. The poor will always exist. Always. Society needs them too. It needs to exploit their cheap labor for the middle class' comfort. Who will clean up and serve you food if you have no poor people? I think its only right to give the poor some level of humanity

  On 3/19/2010 at 10:47 PM, Awepittance said:

right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums.

And the insurance mandate FORCES everyone to pay it... by penalty of fine via taxation.

This is not socialized healthcare. There is no "free" option.

The problem with Obama care is the bill is so bloated and full of crap no one wants to go through it all.

1200 pages is too large for any bill, they made it large and convoluted so people would be less inclined to read the bullshit.

For example there's a part about paying for other people abortions, I think people should take responsibility for their own actions, so I can't support something like that in all good conscience... also this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvSkeJbQy74

seriously wtf

  On 3/19/2010 at 10:47 PM, Awepittance said:

lol i love the absolutely fake argument of saying 'but the quaity of care will be terrible!!' , in theory even if that was true (even though its a childish gross exaggeration) at the very least people would have the fucking OPTION to get a free health checkup. right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums. at the very least republican talking points should make some basic sense, but when they make absolutely no sense and people parrot them i have to have a laugh

Ah bollix. On a phone in bed, hence quoting etc beyond me. But anyone who thinks free healthcare is great should examine the Irish system. It would probably work out cheaper to give everyone an extra grand or two to enable them buy insurance than keep pumping tens of billions into a service that our own minister likened to Angola. I accept that it's an extreme case, but the suggestion that public care here is only a slightly lower standard is very wrong. The gulf is huge and the health system a mess, every week brings a new wave of misdiagnosis and scandals. Anyone who can pay for insurance does.

Conor - your argument has been proven wrong countless times.

Let's compare some data shall we?

Here we have 2007 national expenditure per capita: http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html (please excuse shitty non-searchable database format)

Note the amount the US spends - $6,096 - is highest on the list. Ireland is sort of lower-middle of the pack (for developed nations) at $2,618.

Next, let's look at mortality rates, specifically infant mortality rates.

Here's the data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Look where Ireland is, and look where the US is. Something doesn't add up here. To compare Ireland to Angola is an insult to the Irish doctors/nurses/technicians etc. who work hard at their jobs keeping witless fucks healthy. Any politician proposing a privatized health care system, look at where he or she is getting money from.

My opinion (coming from the land of communism to the north of the states, where healthcare is a proposition that won't bankrupt you, gays can legally fuck and marry, and marijuana possession gets you a slap on the wrist)* is that healthcare is absolutely a right, and the state is morally obliged to provide it. As a citizen, I have certain expectations of my government, and being able to go to the doctor when necessary is one of them.

*Here are some of the negatives of living in Canadaistan.

  On 3/20/2010 at 4:06 AM, EDGEY said:

  On 3/19/2010 at 10:47 PM, Awepittance said:

right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums.

 

And the insurance mandate FORCES everyone to pay it... by penalty of fine via taxation.

 

This is not socialized healthcare. There is no "free" option.

sometimes the government should do what's right for everyone, as opposed to just the privileged few.

i honestly don't understand how any responsible person could be against a healthcare system that's free at the point of use and available to all.

  On 3/20/2010 at 11:32 AM, margaret thatcher said:

  On 3/20/2010 at 4:06 AM, EDGEY said:

  On 3/19/2010 at 10:47 PM, Awepittance said:

right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums.

 

And the insurance mandate FORCES everyone to pay it... by penalty of fine via taxation.

 

This is not socialized healthcare. There is no "free" option.

 

sometimes the government should do what's right for everyone, as opposed to just the privileged few.

i honestly don't understand how any responsible person could be against a healthcare system that's free at the point of use and available to all.

It's.not.free.

These Tea Party Tea-Baggers are basically a bunch of racist idiots... http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/03/20/90772/rep-john-lewis-charges-protesters.html?ixzz0ikoqXkRV?storylink=addthis

  On 3/20/2010 at 5:32 AM, xxx said:

The whole fucking lot--billions of pages and shouting matches--comes down to this one question:

 

Is health care a right or a privilege?

yep, but although it's always framed as a philosophical question, what anti-healthcare nutjobs don't understand is that it is cheaper for the country as a whole if we make healthcare a right.

it just makes economic sense for everyone.

  On 3/21/2010 at 6:04 AM, EDGEY said:

  On 3/20/2010 at 11:32 AM, margaret thatcher said:

  On 3/20/2010 at 4:06 AM, EDGEY said:

  On 3/19/2010 at 10:47 PM, Awepittance said:

right now we don't have a free choice, we only have a choice of paying very high premiums.

 

And the insurance mandate FORCES everyone to pay it... by penalty of fine via taxation.

 

This is not socialized healthcare. There is no "free" option.

 

sometimes the government should do what's right for everyone, as opposed to just the privileged few.

i honestly don't understand how any responsible person could be against a healthcare system that's free at the point of use and available to all.

It's.not.free.

I think the iron lady misunderstood your point about the insurance system proposed by the democrats.

However, you misunderstood his point about socialised medicine being "free at the point of use". It's the bit in italics that's important.

Anyways, even if you are an economic libertarian, I've already posted links to data that indicates the US spends a lot more on healthcare than countries with socialised medicine.

this entire health care debate just really gets my blood boiling. i'm too emotionally involved i think, because i really cannot see one reason why wanting health care for all americans would be a bad thing.

edit: and i'm not talking about this bill. fuck this bill. i want universal health care, paid through taxes, no more shitty insurance companies telling me about "preexisting conditions" and flipping me the bird when i get cancer because "we don't cover that."

  On 3/21/2010 at 7:45 AM, Hoodie said:

this entire health care debate just really gets my blood boiling. i'm too emotionally involved i think, because i really cannot see one reason why wanting health care for all americans would be a bad thing.

 

edit: and i'm not talking about this bill. fuck this bill. i want universal health care, paid through taxes, no more shitty insurance companies telling me about "preexisting conditions" and flipping me the bird when i get cancer because "we don't cover that."

amen brother.

Bill passed , Obama will sign it on the 23rd.

I'm glad it passed. I'm down with mandatory health insurance if regulation is now in place to make it fair. We're not turning into a socialist state, we're adopting a system more like that Switzerland, a state more free and democratic than this country. It's a joke we had to make it illegal to deny people with pre-existing conditions in 2010.

This sadly won't end the GOP bullshit parade. Deficit spending? Big government? W. expanded medicare in 2004 by approving 600 billion dollar measure and racked up trillions of dollars by waging a idiotic credibility damaging war in Iraq. It's insane millions are so delusional to think that Obama is doing something "unconstitutional" by regulating private care. Good for him for getting something passed.

This should help anyone wondering how this affect them.

all i know is that i lost a shit load of respect for Dennis Kucinich during this whole debacle, i don't think i really have a single person in the house or senate now that i can say i stand together with on most issues

edit: would LOVE to be a fly on wall in air force one during the 5 hour Obama VS Kucinich Convincing session. What did he tell Kucinich that made him change his mind? i really need to know

a national healthcare system would be bad because it means everyone is guaranteed to be looked after instead of lying on a fucking gurney in a community hospital dying from blood loss or similar.

looking after people is communism, which is bad... of course we all remember the amphetamine fuelled 'reds under the bed' maccarthyism successes. paranoia coupled with power is its own reward.

lying on a gurney with a 'doctor' probing your current affordability re healthcare is a fucking enormous step forward for the human race. (as long as you have no 'pre-existing' stabbings)

qed, obama is a nigger and a communist. and unamerican. UNAMERICAN.

oh yeah, and socialism is bad too because it's the same, exactly the same, identical to communism.

and communism is like the theory of evolution, it is just wrong so fuck you.

i would be willing to consider this post an all encompassing discursive essay on the benefits and pitfalls of a comprehensive social healthcare system.

hell, i give myself an A plus plus. that's what god would give me.

  On 3/23/2010 at 1:31 AM, Awepittance said:

all i know is that i lost a shit load of respect for Dennis Kucinich during this whole debacle, i don't think i really have a single person in the house or senate now that i can say i stand together with on most issues

 

edit: would LOVE to be a fly on wall in air force one during the 5 hour Obama VS Kucinich Convincing session. What did he tell Kucinich that made him change his mind? i really need to know

I like Kucinich , but every man has a price.

I am very glad this bill passed , i do not agree with everything on it (and the lack of -example- public option) , but this is the change i wanted , baby steps towards Euro socialism .

  On 3/23/2010 at 1:31 AM, Awepittance said:

all i know is that i lost a shit load of respect for Dennis Kucinich during this whole debacle, i don't think i really have a single person in the house or senate now that i can say i stand together with on most issues

 

edit: would LOVE to be a fly on wall in air force one during the 5 hour Obama VS Kucinich Convincing session. What did he tell Kucinich that made him change his mind? i really need to know

i'd like to give dennis the benefit of the doubt, cause he seems like a pretty incorruptible guy, but then again, obama probably threatened him in some manner. i mean, i find it really hard to believe that someone who was so against this bill could be convinced in a few hours that it was good.

that being said, i like almost everything about this bill except for the fact that it's not a real healthcare bill. it improves regulations on insurance companies, yes, but it obviously doesn't offer any alternative, which is what americans (well, at least my family and i) want. mandatory insurance is crap though. isn't this the system that hillary originally proposed? hmm.

"fuck it dude, let's go bowling."