Purchasing ProTools

I've been experimenting recording and making music on Live and ReNoise for a year or so now and I'm thinking that this is something I want to do more seriously, ie I would like to have more experience with professional programs to make better mixes/masters and have something to put on my resume.

In short, I need to get a copy of protools. I understand that they have a budget version "M-Powered" targeted towards people who own M-Audio interfaces. I have a Fast Track Pro and am wondering if anyone could shed a little light in terms of ProTools versions.

I'm looking @ this

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=pro+tools&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=13811280933697969848&ei=kmnfS9LUE4SclgfKrI2vBQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCQQ8wIwAw#ps-sellers

As it's relatively within my budget and seems to be targeted towards my hardware but I'm also aware that some hardware comes packaged with versions of ProTools so perhaps someone might have some advice on how I could potentially upgrade my whole setup provided its not far more costly.

Much appreciated

have you tried using other Protool alternate DAW programs like Logic Pro audio, Cubase or Nuendo? Cheaper solutions and in my opinion much more advanced midi capabilities. The audio editing is pretty much identical to Protools (especially Nuendo)

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:32 AM, Awepittance said:

have you tried using other Protool alternate DAW programs like Logic Pro audio, Cubase or Nuendo? Cheaper solutions and in my opinion much more advanced midi capabilities. The audio editing is pretty much identical to Protools (especially Nuendo)

I've used Logic and Cubase briefly but was not blown away by either. The reason I'm focused on ProTools currently is that I understand it is pretty much a standard in most studios to know how to use. Is this a myth of sorts?

edit: and does the $200-250 version have full functionality?

doesn't seem too terribly expensive

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:44 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:32 AM, Awepittance said:

have you tried using other Protool alternate DAW programs like Logic Pro audio, Cubase or Nuendo? Cheaper solutions and in my opinion much more advanced midi capabilities. The audio editing is pretty much identical to Protools (especially Nuendo)

 

I've used Logic and Cubase briefly but was not blown away by either. The reason I'm focused on ProTools currently is that I understand it is pretty much a standard in most studios to know how to use. Is this a myth of sorts?

 

edit: and does the $200-250 version have full functionality?

doesn't seem too terribly expensive

10 years ago it would have been true, but most studios these days are equipping themselves with Nuendo. Protools took a big hit when Mac intel came out and they were extremely slow to adapt while all the other DAWS were pretty much available instantly for the platform. The midi in protools is god awful, if you are planning on doing purely recording/band editing Protools is fine, but for actually making music you're going to hit a wall much faster than with Logic or Cubase/Nuendo. Not to mention that RTAS /TDM plugins are going out of style and are much harder to find in pirated form than AU or VSTS

Edit: is a studio you go to is still only using protools for digital recording i would go to a different studio honestly.

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

if a studio you go to is still only using protools for digital recording i would go to a different studio honestly.

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:44 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:32 AM, Awepittance said:

have you tried using other Protool alternate DAW programs like Logic Pro audio, Cubase or Nuendo? Cheaper solutions and in my opinion much more advanced midi capabilities. The audio editing is pretty much identical to Protools (especially Nuendo)

 

I've used Logic and Cubase briefly but was not blown away by either. The reason I'm focused on ProTools currently is that I understand it is pretty much a standard in most studios to know how to use. Is this a myth of sorts?

 

edit: and does the $200-250 version have full functionality?

doesn't seem too terribly expensive

 

10 years ago it would have been true, but most studios these days are equipping themselves with Nuendo. Protools took a big hit when Mac intel came out and they were extremely slow to adapt while all the other DAWS were pretty much available instantly for the platform. The midi in protools is god awful, if you are planning on doing purely recording/band editing Protools is fine, but for actually making music you're going to hit a wall much faster than with Logic or Cubase/Nuendo. Not to mention that RTAS /TDM plugins are going out of style and are much harder to find in pirated form than AU or VSTS

 

Edit: is a studio you go to is still only using protools for digital recording i would go to a different studio honestly.

Thanks for the info. I've actually gotten into doing sound for films and it was my understanding that ProTools (and Soundtrack Pro) is largely popular in that field which got me to thinking I should probably be at least moderately familiar with the program. Currently for recording audio I use Ableton and sometimes ReNoise as I like the simplicity of the sample editor a lot. I wasn't thinking much about my own noodlings but I suppose since I am considering dropping a little $, it's a good thing to think about and I'm always up for expanding my horizons in terms of tools and apps. Nuendo looks pretty stacked, but were you suggesting it as a cheaper alternative? The version I'm coming up with is $1700. Granted there is the pirate route, but I tend to like to pay for something I value.

I'm familiar with VST mainly. Does ProTools only support RTAS/TDM? That would definitely be a reason to choose something else. Again, I appreciate your help here. Just trying to spend wisely.

Anyway, the word I've always got was that the ProTools EQs, Limiters, Shapers etc were superior to most DAWs. Is there some reason to believe this is true? False? Would I see much of an improvement in terms of recordings vs. Ableton or ReNoise?

  On 5/4/2010 at 3:11 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

Anyway, the word I've always got was that the ProTools EQs, Limiters, Shapers etc were superior to most DAWs. Is there some reason to believe this is true? False? Would I see much of an improvement in terms of recordings vs. Ableton or ReNoise?

The dynamics processors that seem to be most hyped these days seem to be Waves stuff and Logic ones. I swear i feels like every "big" act these days is using Logic and bring up how fucking A+ the onboard compressor is. So if you're going by "word", then yeah. Buy a quadcore Mac, go for the full Logic package. But if you're going for quality DSP, forget restricting yourself to native packages (although i think the Cubase, Logic and Ableton ones are great, even renoise has a pretty tits bundle - as of version 2.0 at least) and choose either of the following for great justice: IK Multimedia, Waves, PSP, Sonnox/Sony, Voxengo, Softube, SPL. There's particular gems in each one, but all pretty much cover all bases so you can restrict yourself to one company. But since you're not forced to buy the whole package as you would in a native bundle, i suggest you pick up the winners from each - off the top of my head: Sonnox Limiter & Inflator, Softube CL1B & Amp Rooms, SPL Transient Designer, Voxengo VariSaturator, PSP Vintage Warmer, IK Multimedia T-Racks (great dynamics suite)... The Waves stuff you still have to buy as whole pretty expensive suites. If you wanna "feel" like your paying for quality (just so you can sleep better and for no other reason), get a UAD card and a UAD suite. Done. Also get Guitar Rig 3 for... guitars and the new Lexicon software bundle for reverb. You're set.

Recording wise... Don't let anybody ever fucking tell you country-ass backwards crap like "ProTools has better summing than that toy Ableton Live". Before sticking a fucking medieval sword in his liver (that you obtain by your own devices, i have no suggestions here) tell him this: "So, one software can add 2 + 2 better?" He might mention dithering as he's losing blood, but as you pull the sword out of his dying husk and spin for the coup the grace, mention in passing: "So, one software can apply one of quite a few dithering algorithms better?" Take his corpse with you, you can later carve his skull into a urinal.

Your soundcard has the most impact on your recording quality (good D/A converters and all that). Your ears, skills and mastering plugins have the most impact on how it comes out at the end. Now, you have to realize what it is you actually want to do with your DAW. If, as i gather, you want to get a job at some large studio with a framework already set up in place, then your best bet would be to ask what THEY use, and learn that, whether it will be Logic, Cubase\Nuendo, or ProTools (i hope it won't be ProTools). If you're recording bands on your own or are planning to set up your own studio I'd go with Logic or Cubase, personally. They are well geared towards this, and sport an immediacy and... well... modernity that ProTools doesn't quite reach. If you just want to recording external audio into your computer yourself for your own stuff... I'd recommend sticking to what you're fastest and most skilled with. ReNoise doesn't quite cut it for audio recording, but ableton will do just fine, and it's audio mangling capabilities are only now being matched by Logic.

ProTools has only one true advantage left, which is 0 latency recording. Of course, in a medium where 3ms latency on even a wimpy dualcore has become the norm, i wouldn't be quick to shell out my cash for that. Humans cannot even perceive latency that is lower than 10ms.

And everybody's money right now is arguably and demonstrably in Cubase, Logic, and Ableton. You buy a audio mag, you'll see most ads are for those, most tutorials are geared as users of those... it's quite easy to gauge the huge popularity of these 3. Especially Logic and Ableton. And this comes with some advantages in itself, in that new stuff is being developed for them all the time because of this heightened interest, like the recent Akai APC for Live.

In short: ProTools is for Celine Dion, Linkin Park, Britney Spears and Barbie.

Sir I thank you verily for your informed reply. I've had a lot of success with Ableton (and that APC does look interesting...a little pricey though) so I wouldn't stop using that just because ProTools is hyped. But honestly, I wouldn't know how to tell the difference between some of the better EQ and Shaping plug-ins so I appreciate the list. I'm familiar with some of those, others I'll try. It seems that part and parcel a lot of these DAWs are very similar in their operation. So, correct me if im wrong, but it seems that a general knowledge of how various Audio Modeling tools work is more important than knowledge of a specific DAW.

Allow me to ask the following: If I do a mix/song in ReNoise does it behove me to export the mix to another DAW with supposedly superior modeling tools (such as Nuendo, ProTools, or Logic) for a final master or am I equally cared for using some of those Plug-Ins (such as Waves) on the master track?

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:12 AM, Lube Saibot said:

 

Recording wise... Don't let anybody ever fucking tell you country-ass backwards crap like "ProTools has better summing than that toy Ableton Live". Before sticking a fucking medieval sword in his liver (that you obtain by your own devices, i have no suggestions here) tell him this: "So, one software can add 2 + 2 better?" He might mention dithering as he's losing blood, but as you pull the sword out of his dying husk and spin for the coup the grace, mention in passing: "So, one software can apply one of quite a few dithering algorithms better?" Take his corpse with you, you can later carve his skull into a urinal.

 

Pure awesomeness

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:33 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

So, correct me if im wrong, but it seems that a general knowledge of how various Audio Modeling tools work is more important than knowledge of a specific DAW.

Yes. A defo yes.

Off topic: Why are you capitalizing audio modeling?

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:33 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

If I do a mix/song in ReNoise does it behove me to export the mix to another DAW with supposedly superior modeling tools (such as Nuendo, ProTools, or Logic) for a final master or am I equally cared for using some of those Plug-Ins (such as Waves) on the master track?

Depends man, i like to have an image of my mix wav for mastering purposes so i can discern peak\trough ratios more clearly. But that because i like to alternate between just using my ears and working visually. Also to have a normalized mix going into my mastering chain. So i export then reimport into a mastering edit. Also i don't keep levels low on channels in my tracks, i keep them normal and attenuate from the master buss to avoid clipping (as i don't mix with a limiter on the master buss either). But that's just my thing. Feel free to develop yours (while making sure it makes sense, of course).

If you're gonna use the same plugins you'd use in Logic or Nuendo... i mean, yeah, sure, totally, master in ReNoise.

Since you're tackling this harsh mistress of engineering your own shit: remember to take at least weeklong breaks before the final mix and final master of a track to allow your hearing to become remotely objective; when frustrated, stop, otherwise you'll ruin shit... start over the next day after doing a bit of reading on what exactly you're trying to achieve; steer clear of Gearslutz (them folk know their shit 99% of the time, but they're also massive fucking gear fetishists, and nowadays you gotta keep it pretty multifaceted IMO); and for god's sake, if you haven't already, get good nearfields for monitoring purposes. I'd also suggest acoustically treating your room, but by the time you scrounge up enough money to do so or are professionally invested in your musicmaking to consider doing so you'll have already become attuned to the effects of your room and will be able to compensate for it. For you next studio\house, definitely do it though.

Most importantly, get nerdy.

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:38 AM, Drahken said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:12 AM, Lube Saibot said:

 

Recording wise... Don't let anybody ever fucking tell you country-ass backwards crap like "ProTools has better summing than that toy Ableton Live". Before sticking a fucking medieval sword in his liver (that you obtain by your own devices, i have no suggestions here) tell him this: "So, one software can add 2 + 2 better?" He might mention dithering as he's losing blood, but as you pull the sword out of his dying husk and spin for the coup the grace, mention in passing: "So, one software can apply one of quite a few dithering algorithms better?" Take his corpse with you, you can later carve his skull into a urinal.

 

 

Pure awesomeness

I'd just seen the newest Oglaf strip before typing that. Oglaf always gets me berzerkergang.

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:54 AM, Lube Saibot said:

 

Depends man, i like to have an image of my mix wav for mastering purposes so i can discern peak\trough ratios more clearly. But that because i like to alternate between just using my ears and working visually. Also to have a normalized mix going into my mastering chain. So i export then reimport into a mastering edit. Also i don't keep levels low on channels in my tracks, i keep them normal and attenuate from the master buss to avoid clipping (as i don't mix with a limiter on the master buss either). But that's just my thing. Feel free to develop yours (while making sure it makes sense, of course).

 

If you're gonna use the same plugins you'd use in Logic or Nuendo... i mean, yeah, sure, totally, master in ReNoise.

 

Since you're tackling this harsh mistress of engineering your own shit: remember to take at least weeklong breaks before the final mix and final master of a track to allow your hearing to become remotely objective; when frustrated, stop, otherwise you'll ruin shit... start over the next day after doing a bit of reading on what exactly you're trying to achieve; steer clear of Gearslutz (them folk know their shit 99% of the time, but they're also massive fucking gear fetishists, and nowadays you gotta keep it pretty multifaceted IMO); and for god's sake, if you haven't already, get good nearfields for monitoring purposes. I'd also suggest acoustically treating your room, but by the time you scrounge up enough money to do so or are professionally invested in your musicmaking to consider doing so you'll have already become attuned to the effects of your room and will be able to compensate for it. For you next studio\house, definitely do it though.

 

Most importantly, get nerdy.

I'm not entirely sure how you get around using a limiter in your master track but cool! I've got a pair of Alesis M1Active 520 which seem fine to me. I also check things out on the cans and shittier speakers to get more of an idea. I appreciate the tip on taking some time to get an objective perspective. I've been doing this thus far with good results. As far as acoustically treating a room. Does this simply entail soundproofing with foam? I understand that I want to cut down on the verb for the majority of recordings but is there more that goes into this? Perhaps this is a big question, but you've been very helpful so far so I figured I'd ask anyway.

Ah and I guess I should buy some books on the subject.

If it's a possibility for you, than yeah, defo deaden the room a bit with some foam. Just a bit on the walls at the relative height of your monitors, on your ceiling if it's high. Maybe make some ad-hoc cheapo DIY bass traps for your corners on your own if your handy with carpentry at all.

As for the foam, try to go to a local factory or something and get industrial standard insulation foam. It should be this thick, amalgamated plastics and rubbers compound. It's cheaper than music-shop pyramidal foam and does quite a better job of deadening the room. I'm not sure if it's actually healthy to live with it around you, if you've got a bedroom setup. You should check up on that. It's put in walls of people's houses though, shouldn't be. Juss sayin', cause it smells very... toxic. This friend of mine uses it for his entire studio but he doesn't sleep there, and it's very spacious. It heat insulates a lot though, so in summer you're going to be boiling. It's a matter of picking your battles i guess.

Live long and prosper.

edit: yeah those monitors'll suite you just fine.

  On 5/4/2010 at 5:31 AM, Lube Saibot said:

If it's a possibility for you, than yeah, defo deaden the room a bit with some foam. Just a bit on the walls at the relative height of your monitors, on your ceiling if it's high. Maybe make some ad-hoc cheapo DIY bass traps for your corners on your own if your handy with carpentry at all.

 

As for the foam, try to go to a local factory or something and get industrial standard insulation foam. It should be this thick, amalgamated plastics and rubbers compound. It's cheaper than music-shop pyramidal foam and does quite a better job of deadening the room. I'm not sure if it's actually healthy to live with it around you, if you've got a bedroom setup. You should check up on that. It's put in walls of people's houses though, shouldn't be. Juss sayin', cause it smells very... toxic. This friend of mine uses it for his entire studio but he doesn't sleep there, and it's very spacious. It heat insulates a lot though, so in summer you're going to be boiling. It's a matter of picking your battles i guess.

 

Live long and prosper.

Ah...hahah I dont have air conditioning either. But hey nothing like a toxic sweat den to make the

Defo.

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

The midi in protools is god awful, if you are planning on doing purely recording/band editing Protools is fine, but for actually making music you're going to hit a wall much faster than with Logic or Cubase/Nuendo.

sad but true. i made the mistake of investing a bunch of money in protools hardware and plugins and have been regretting it thoroughly for a while now. the MIDI is bad enough to make me not even want to use it. i usually just try to play in time straight to audio.

any idea how well a protools 003 rack would work with other software?

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

 

Hey Hey, check your pm's when you're free please. It's hard trying to stalk you in threads

  On 5/4/2010 at 11:51 AM, Space Coyote said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

 

 

Hey Hey, check your pm's when you're free please. It's hard trying to stalk you in threads

i didn't see any new pms but ill check for them if you sent one, btw the item has been sent. i'll let you know how much the shipping was

  On 5/4/2010 at 5:52 AM, uptown devil said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:50 AM, Awepittance said:

The midi in protools is god awful, if you are planning on doing purely recording/band editing Protools is fine, but for actually making music you're going to hit a wall much faster than with Logic or Cubase/Nuendo.

 

sad but true. i made the mistake of investing a bunch of money in protools hardware and plugins and have been regretting it thoroughly for a while now. the MIDI is bad enough to make me not even want to use it. i usually just try to play in time straight to audio.

 

any idea how well a protools 003 rack would work with other software?

it would probably work fine, the latency wouldn't be that great but i'm sure the website has drivers for it to use with other hosts. the latency on cubase and reaktor with my Mbox is pretty miserable. I only bought the mbox because of the nice preamps it has had for the price range at the time.

While protools does have some pretty cool exclusive plugins like the Eventide series for it, the overall choices are very thin compared to the plethora of free VSTs and AU plugs out there. There aren't very many people making free RTas plugins and if you're into torrenting and that type of thing be prepared for a good amount of the exclusive TDM plugins to remain elusive.

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:54 AM, Lube Saibot said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:33 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

So, correct me if im wrong, but it seems that a general knowledge of how various Audio Modeling tools work is more important than knowledge of a specific DAW.

 

Yes. A defo yes.

 

 

I'm going to disagree with that, not in a you're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak kind of way, but I think there is a counter argument to this thread that isn't being voiced. Namely that if you are looking at this from a professional aspect, you will need to be technically very proficient knowing your way around a DAW, prefereably a variety,and have all the other attributes. So it isn't a question of what is more imporatnt, it's all important.

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:59 PM, Lady kakapo said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:54 AM, Lube Saibot said:

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:33 AM, Scrambled Ears said:

So, correct me if im wrong, but it seems that a general knowledge of how various Audio Modeling tools work is more important than knowledge of a specific DAW.

 

Yes. A defo yes.

 

 

 

I'm going to disagree with that, not in a you're wrong and you're a grotesquely ugly freak kind of way, but I think there is a counter argument to this thread that isn't being voiced. Namely that if you are looking at this from a professional aspect, you will need to be technically very proficient knowing your way around a DAW, prefereably a variety,and have all the other attributes. So it isn't a question of what is more imporatnt, it's all important.

To be honest i read that "rather that using a specific DAW". I was sleepy. Yeah, having re-read that, i agree with you fully.

It's become way trendy to diss Pro Tools nowadays, but I still use Pro Tools LE (feature-wise, basically the same as M-powered) all the time. Here's some opinions:

1. No idea what people don't like about the MIDI in PT. I only use it for softsynths, so I can't speak to the timing to external devices (it probably sucks), but as a MIDI editor, it's fine. You can build stuff really quickly with MIDI regions, and the built-in real-time MIDI effects are awesome. They don't really work the way a lot of other "quantize" or "shuffle" functions work in other programs. The controller editing is still kinda wack, but other than that I have no complaints about the MIDI.

2. Editing audio (by this I mean snipping stuff, comping stuff, etc.) is much more enjoyable in PT than in any other app I'm aware of. I haven't used any of the new elastic audio stuff, but even just the crossfade functions, along with tab-to-transient and all the other little things they do, makes editing audio feel really solid.

3. Sound-wise, the whole "it's all the same math duhhhhhh" argument is kind of missing the point. Cuz like .. it's not all the same math. For one thing, the pan law in PT is completely different than most other applications. Heck they sort of don't really have a pan law.

4. The PT interface is really weird and you have to read the manual to get good at the software. That's because they don't do stuff the "normal" way you'd expect, so if you try and bring up the interface and mouse around and "figure it out", you're going to think it's clunky and it sucks, because you can't get it to do anything good that way. Real fast PT dudes do almost everything without using the mouse and it's a very strange system in that sense.

So if you "know" Cubase or whatever, I wouldn't expect to be able to sit down and use PT because PT is totally weird. So if you really want to have "studio skills", you're going to need to spend some time with PT hands-on whether you buy it or not, otherwise you'll be lost or frustrated with it.

2 cents

  On 5/4/2010 at 4:38 PM, Ascdi said:

3. Sound-wise, the whole "it's all the same math duhhhhhh" argument is kind of missing the point. Cuz like .. it's not all the same math. For one thing, the pan law in PT is completely different than most other applications. Heck they sort of don't really have a pan law.

And that is better how?

Haha what?

  On 5/4/2010 at 5:11 PM, Ascdi said:

Haha what?

ya are you trying to say that the panning would sound better or is more dynamic? that seems odd

edit: anyway I appreciate all the replies but no one has really shed any light on dif. versions of protools. would the GUI you would expect to encounter in a studio be any dif from M-Powered or LE?

  On 5/4/2010 at 2:59 PM, Lady kakapo said:

it's all important.

i kind of imagined that would be the case