the end of the world

Well its pretty hard to prove that humans are inherently greedy, just as it is pretty hard for you to prove that they aren't. Either way, definitive proof of the subject won't be flushed out on a message board.

My only proof is for us to take a look around and see it. If it wasn't inherent, then you'd think in all of the years of human civilization, we'd have figured out how to help everyone, and yet mostly I see a fair amount of evil and corruption and greed. We could be feeding and housing every single person on this planet if we wanted to, but greedy interests prevent it from happening.

And until it has actually changed, I'm going to go with it being inherent.

Ive NEVER met someone that was perfect.... Never acted upon greed or self interest in some form. Myself, and you included.

  On 5/10/2010 at 10:00 PM, Bread said:

 

Now that we have the technological tools and scientific ability to provide for everyone,

lol

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Well its pretty hard to prove that humans are inherently greedy, just as it is pretty hard for you to prove that they aren't. Either way, definitive proof of the subject won't be flushed out on a message board.

The evidence I put forward is feral children. Find some interesting, detailed case studies on how the environment has impacted in a child's developing brain. New neural connections are made to associate with the environment that they are in e.g. in the case of Oxana Malaya, she spent a lot of her younger years in the presence of dogs, and was deprived of proper care from her parents. She ended up acting like a dog when psychiatrists approached her. She had made connections in her brain, which mirrored the actions that dogs carried out - now, how does a "greedy gene" stand up in the face of this? I must emphasise that there is none such thing as a greedy gene. Sure, the brain is hardwired in certain ways, to survive for instance. But that does not means we are inherently greedy. If you provided an abundant environment, greed would not be prevalent in a society.

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My only proof is for us to take a look around and see it. If it wasn't inherent, then you'd think in all of the years of human civilization, we'd have figured out how to help everyone, and yet mostly I see a fair amount of evil and corruption and greed. We could be feeding and housing every single person on this planet if we wanted to, but greedy interests prevent it from happening.

I understand where you are coming from, and I used to think this way before I studied psychology, neuroscience and environmental conditioning.. then I realised that there are many interacting variables on the human mind. We carry certain behaviours for a reason - it's all about tracing the root cause of aberrant corrupt behaviour - there is a root cause to the "evil" you talk about. The monetary system does not help anything and in fact accelerates greed with the need to maintain profit. In other words, the money system is not a social system designed for society - it's completely outdated and not up to date with current technological capabilities.

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And until it has actually changed, I'm going to go with it being inherent.

Define inherent? Do you mean, it is a genetic component? As in a gene for being greedy?

Well I'm not going to pretend that I know all the answers, but even you.... Someone who has studied these things, do not have all the answers. I mean, if you keep at it, the argument will reach to the depths of metaphysical, and even then there are no answers. All I know is what I can observe. I see a LOT of greed. And I never said inherently.... You threw that word out there first. Regardless of how you define it, greed and corruption have been constants in human history, and I see no change to that trend in my life time.

  On 5/10/2010 at 10:56 PM, Kcinsu said:

Well I'm not going to pretend that I know all the answers, but even you.... Someone who has studied these things, do not have all the answers. I mean, if you keep at it, the argument will reach to the depths of metaphysical, and even then there are no answers. All I know is what I can observe. I see a LOT of greed. And I never said inherently.... You threw that word out there first. Regardless of how you define it, greed and corruption have been constants in human history, and I see no change to that trend in my life time.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, I base my points of view on as much evidence I can find.. I don't like to see baseless arguments however when someone claims that humans are inherently greedy/selfish without taking a look at the environment which shapes someone's behaviour. It's easy to see that greed is a constant in human history - but I would advocate that this is due to a scarce environment. Would you agree though that money doesn't help, and that it fuels greed even further?

naughts had and all is spent when desire is met without content

  On 5/10/2010 at 11:08 PM, Bread said:

  On 5/10/2010 at 10:56 PM, Kcinsu said:

Well I'm not going to pretend that I know all the answers, but even you.... Someone who has studied these things, do not have all the answers. I mean, if you keep at it, the argument will reach to the depths of metaphysical, and even then there are no answers. All I know is what I can observe. I see a LOT of greed. And I never said inherently.... You threw that word out there first. Regardless of how you define it, greed and corruption have been constants in human history, and I see no change to that trend in my life time.

I don't pretend to know all the answers, I base my points of view on as much evidence I can find.. I don't like to see baseless arguments however when someone claims that humans are inherently greedy/selfish without taking a look at the environment which shapes someone's behaviour. It's easy to see that greed is a constant in human history - but I would advocate that this is due to a scarce environment. Would you agree though that money doesn't help, and that it fuels greed even further?

Sure I'll agree to that, but its not reallly the point of this discussion.

If you look back at history, you'll see that we used to have an abundance of resources, yet people constantly try to control them, and take them from others. Is that what you meant by scarce environment? If not, please elaborate. And again, I never said inherent. You did. What I said was through out history, you see the same things.... Greed and corruption etc.

Your story about the wolf baby... Ok. Yes, I get that. So would you say humans aren't greedy... But all of our civilizations progregated it? what is civilization? It's all constructs of humans.

So is it possible that one day in the future, humans could be raised to not be greedy or corrupt, or make decisions based on anger and all the other human emotions that have steered the course of human history, perhaps.

So maybe its not inherent.... There is no gene, but when you look at all of human history , and you see these qualities.... Its silly to argue what i said on a technicality.... What I meant to say, is thar so far we've not been able to create a society devoid of these characteristics, and so my predictions of humanity to continue them, is a valid theory.... No?

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Well I'm not going to pretend that I know all the answers, but even you.... Someone who has studied these things, do not have all the answers. I mean, if you keep at it, the argument will reach to the depths of metaphysical, and even then there are no answers. All I know is what I can observe. I see a LOT of greed.

You see a lot of greed, but don't look to identify the root causes of the greed. Our minds are not metaphysical things. As I type, there are physical, electrochemical reactions occurring in my brain. All thought processes are physical.

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And I never said inherently.... You threw that word out there first. Regardless of how you define it, greed and corruption have been constants in human history, and I see no change to that trend in my life time.

Here's your exact quote: "And until it has actually changed, I'm going to go with it being inherent. "

How about trying to identify the root causes of such greed instead of summarising the complexity of human behaviour in one sentence, and just accepting things the way they are?

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If you look back at history, you'll see that we used to have an abundance of resources, yet people constantly try to control them, and take them from others. Is that what you meant by scarce environment? If not, please elaborate. And again, I never said inherent. You did. What I said was through out history, you see the same things.... Greed and corruption etc.

The question is why do people feel the need to take control over resources? If there is a reward for corrupt behaviour, such as taking control over resource management (it's important to note that the money system supports rewarding corruption), then people will become aberrant. The reward is within the person's environment, such as monetary gain. I have never known a period in time where humanity has lived in a sustainable social system where abundance is prevalent. If you can give me an example, I'd like to know.

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Your story about the wolf baby... Ok. Yes, I get that. So would you say humans aren't greedy... But all of our civilizations progregated it? what is civilization? It's all constructs of humans.

Yes, societies are constructs of humans, but the humans are operating within scarcity. They create a system, like money, out of scarcity. Can you understand an abundance is detrimental to the monetary system? You don't pay for the air you breathe. This is an abundant element (oxygen) and can not be assigned a price tag.

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So is it possible that one day in the future, humans could be raised to not be greedy or corrupt, or make decisions based on anger and all the other human emotions that have steered the course of human history, perhaps.

It's possible IF we change our social system. A resource based economy would be a good start. The monetary system amplifies our negative emotive tendencies. It's funny because I provide these criticisms of the monetary system, and no one challenges these thoughts so I assume most people agree that money is not designed for society, it's designed for people to work against each other.

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So maybe its not inherent.... There is no gene, but when you look at all of human history , and you see these qualities.... Its silly to argue what i said on a technicality.... What I meant to say, is thar so far we've not been able to create a society devoid of these characteristics, and so my predictions of humanity to continue them, is a valid theory.... No?

I would have to disagree. Do you take into account that a scarce environment can play a role in bringing about negative behaviour in a society or group of people? Would you consider that we are not shaped by our environment, to an extent?

I simply dont have the energy to argue.

good night.

  On 5/11/2010 at 12:31 AM, Kcinsu said:

you said I said inherently, which I did not. I merely began using that term after you introduced it to the conversation. if you can't see that, then I'm not going to bother reading past your first bullet point response, because I simply dont have the energy to argue.

 

good night.

My aim wasn't to argue. I thought we were discussing without ad hominem

i always think i'm excited to see something really fucked up and life shattering and crazy happen, then when i feel like it's going to happen any second i start begging for god to make it not happen.

I am noticing, in hearing the concerns brought up by Kcinsu and Bread, how little I expect or want peace and cooperation in the future. In my mind I only see the law of accelerating returns as an enabling factor for more complexity to enter the strange dance between humans, their expressions, their governments, and their technology. I see the more complex structures of human behavior as analogous to animal behavior as analogous to plant behavior as analogous to microbiological behavior as analogous to molecular behavior as analogous to subatomic behavior. In all systems, there are creative and destructive forces acting in parallel and producing unlimited veins of increasing order and disorder. The expansion of Human intelligence should simultaneously bring moments of perceptual utopia and moments of utter devastation. Much like the savage, yet beautiful ecology of a rainforest, the jungle of expanded, technologically manipulated consciousness and all the bizarre permutations of the human and unhuman character it will bring...will be a wondrous and terrifying place.

  On 5/11/2010 at 1:02 AM, Salvatorin said:

The expansion of Human intelligence should simultaneously bring moments of perceptual utopia and moments of utter devastation. Much like the savage, yet beautiful ecology of a rainforest, the jungle of expanded, technologically manipulated consciousness and all the bizarre permutations of the human and unhuman character it will bring...will be a wondrous and terrifying place.

fornication and asphyxiation

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xQyQnXrLb0

thats what i thought of too

'till we can harvest the energy of the sun , we are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

  On 5/11/2010 at 1:17 AM, Boxing Day said:

'till we can harvest the energy of the sun , we are nothing in the grand scheme of things.

LOL , yeah , i wasn't talking about that scale

That is nothing compared to what we could actually do.

WE MUST BUILD A MATRIOSHKA BRAIN

  On 5/10/2010 at 7:14 AM, vamos scorcho said:

http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0134.html?printable=1

 

i believe this. i just watched "into the universe" on the discovery channel, it really got me thinking about this stufffffffffffff right now.

 

i don't think it's ridiculous to say that within (most all of our) lifetimes we are going to see an entirely new dimension of reality that absolutely nobody before us in the history of the earth has seen

 

but not in the way that the internet is entirely new - just that there is going to be a widespread spiritual awakening - it's weird

 

just food for thought, spreading it to those who haven't seen this link and shit

 

this thread . is terrible but check out that link

 

you guys say it's bs, i say it seems very valid. provide a link that makes this link bs.

If you took out your apology towards the end of this post - I'd have thought you were mocking ET.

  On 5/10/2010 at 10:18 PM, Kcinsu said:

Ive NEVER met someone that was perfect....

Isn't it an inherent law that nothing is perfect?

I like the way you can say that as "Nothing is perfect" meaning "Everything is imperfect"... or "Nothing is perfect" meaning the concept of nothingness is perfection. Ahh, nihilism.. to be young again.

wasn't trying to be nihilistic

I was using the "general" you, not you particularly...

Invention causes graphs to rise.

That about sums it all up