Louis Theroux

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finally watched this, glad to see Louis Theroux in a recent doc

  On 2/6/2011 at 12:05 AM, ezkerraldean said:

  On 2/5/2011 at 11:55 PM, Awepittance said:

i'm talking about all types of zionism, not just the kind in this video.The premise that the religion of Judaism claims ownership to this territory as some kind of religious birth right is based on the Bible..... a fictional book. Like i said if you believe the bible is literally historical i could see how one could actually believe this seriously. If not, how can one believe such an absurd cultural myth so strongly?

they obviously have some roots in the area, it's inevitable from genetics and the preference of jews to have wee kiddies with their own jewfolk. and the bible isn't entirely bollocks. the stories in it are obviously partly based on history - obviously there were jewish states in the area in the past. but yeah, it's ridiculous to base a nationalistic movement on stuff like that.i also don't get why the settlers have to live in palestine, it's so deliberately antagonistic. why not irrigate the negev desert and build big cities there?

Negev's too arid and mountainous, geographically irrigation is impossible. It's mostly Bedouins, some solar panels, and IDF bases. And, this is absurdly sad but true, it's probably not antagonistic enough to settle there.

  On 2/6/2011 at 12:21 AM, Awepittance said:

  On 2/6/2011 at 12:17 AM, eugene said:

it's a huge mistake to call bible purely fictional, there's a lot of factual data to infer from it

i didn't say it was purely fictional, obviously there are many references to real places, people and events however that's where the factualness ends. I will agree though that its a common misperception even among non religious westerners that many events in the old testament bible actually happened. I've had arguments with atheists where they were convinced Moses was a real person, there is absolutely no proof or science to back up that he existed at all. Please point me in the direction of where i can read more about secular zionism, the only kinds i've seen examples of are driven by a santa claus like belief that God told them they were the chosen people and the land belonged to them.

Well, Labor Zionists were instrumental in leading the Israeli forces in the 1948 for example. People lumped into the religious zionist movement are usually orthodox jews, and within the movement you have the folks Louis Theroux interviewed and even more batshit insane evangelical Christians like John Hagee Secular Zionism is arguably the bedrock of moderate and leftist Israelis who are willing to compromise, and oppose new settlements.

Just glancing at the wikipedia article points at a variety of formsWhat makes all of this so ridiculous and just flat out depressing is that religious overtones and non-factual rhetoric is at the heart of both sides. Palestinians have secular leadership and a plethora of secular sympathizers (like hip Danish 20-somethings! ok sorry, joking aside now) but at the end of the day most are Muslims and Islamic beliefs have literally incorporate the land just as much as Judaic beliefs have: the Dome of the Rock is on the ruins of the Temple Mount because Muhammad supposedly ascended to heaven at that spot.

At the end of the day it's simple: the religious zealots will always fuck everything up.

So yeah,