monitors but not really..

Braintree, I thought you said you went to school for recording? Your grasp on the issue seems even more flimsy and arrogantly wrong than my extreme ignorance to sound engineering was a few years ago. More than anyone you really do come across like you're talking out of your ass.

For starters just like so many people are saying I can hear the low end a lot more accurately with my headphones is the majority of monitors are not very accurate at below 60-80hz. (NOT FLAT, THEY START HEAVILY DROPPING OFF) Do you even understand how a crossover works Braintree?

Ever notice how when you have a sub in, even if it's quiet and not hyping the bass you usually will hear parts of the low end that YOU NEVER COULD POSSIBLY HEAR WITH MOST SPEAKERS ALONE?

i really don't know jack shit about the technicalities. it's just like sheet music -- i haven't a fucking clue; i rely almost entirely on my ears.

i bought the A7s because the blamstrain guy recommended them to me. then i felt it needed more bass, so i bought the sub8. they have lots of little fiddly settings -- the a7s have low cut + EQ, the sub's max freq can be set, etc. not to mention you have to deal with the sound of the room. my approach is to take some dxm hbr (which sharpens my hearing a bit) and then spend an hour or two trying combos of settings and nudging the speakers around until it sounds "right."

steve albini i am not, but i think i do a good enough job.

Yes, I have a degree in audio engineering, and I've worked in the industry for the better part of a decade. I'm just telling you from my real world experience, that most studio engineers don't use a subwoofer while mixing. They do in movie sound stages, since those are all standard, but they generally won't in the initial mix for a record or something.

Subwoofers used properly should bring up the missing range in the low lows to FLATTEN AND EVEN OUT out your perception of the below 200hz stuff if needed to go that high on the crossover and make it just so you can hear that frequency range not "make them louder" it should make those frequencies accurately audible. Some headphones, some cars, some clubs, some rooms and speakers are going to definitely show you whats going on down below 100hz and some will hype that range, some will attenuate it but YOU NEED TO KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON DOWN THERE AS FLAT AS POSSIBLE. Very few speakers are that accurate below 100hz and start dropping off or don't accurately produce that low. You use a crossover where needed and the sub helps your monitors accurately produce that range. A sub accurately tuned for a flat perception will just extend that low low continuing out your otherwise nearly flat response from your acoustics and speakers. (instead of that low low just starting to severely drop off in varying degrees depending on the speakers and your room)

Most studio engineers are not mixing electronic music. Most studio engineers work in a fucking studio aimed towards recording live-off-the-floor bands in a style where sub bass is not the foundation the track is built upon. Fuck studio engineers and their elitism. They are not the standard that everyone should be compared to.

Of course you don't NEED a sub, but to say it is harmful to the music is ridiculous. Like BFC said they are NOT producing frequencies that aren't there, they are making up for frequencies that are not produced well by monitors alone. Do you know how hard your speakers have to work to reproduce sounds down to 20hz? There is a tradeoff, to be able to pump out those sounds you need a large cone that moves significantly further in and out than usual, and when you simultaneously try to produce very low frequency stuff while also trying to keep the nuances of your very high stuff (very subtle movement of the speaker) it's like you are trying to cut down a tree and perform open-heart surgery with the same tool. Isolating bands and playing them through multiple speakers allows you to get the best tool for every job, you have a sub dedicated to doing nothing but working on your low end, and you have your monitors that catch your mids and highs. No one is saying anything about emphasizing the low end, we are talking about reproducing your entire frequency range more cleanly.

And anyone that thinks they are getting a flat frequency response down at 20hz on their 6's or 8's better check their frequency response sheet that came with their monitors.

Jesus Christ. This is like me saying "Pro Tools is the industry standard for modern recording and mixing" and then you guys saying "no, you're clearly wrong." I'm going to make two last points.

  On 7/13/2011 at 10:12 PM, Blanket Fort Collapse said:

Subwoofers used properly should bring up the missing range in the low lows to FLATTEN AND EVEN OUT out your perception of the below 200hz stuff if needed to go that high on the crossover and make it just so you can hear that frequency range not "make them louder" it should make those frequencies accurately audible.

There is no missing range, only what your ears won't hear naturally without boosting something. Can you imagine buying a loudspeaker and having the salesperson say "yeah, there's no response in this unit from 20hz to 200hz"? That would be the shittiest speaker ever made. Those frequencies are there, just not accented to the point where they are clear, or reproduced with the level of detail a sub will get. The sub essentially takes those low frequencies and makes them louder.

And no, you're not flattening out the signal when you use a subwoofer. Since the subwoofer is basically just boosting bass, you're skewing your perception of what sounds good. Yes, subwoofers are badass. I love to play in a venue with a huge sub, but that is after the fact. That's after I've mixed the music. The subwoofer is basically an extra large woofer that only allows low frequencies to pass through. Why does a woofer not produce as much bass as a subwoofer? Size. Low frequencies move slower and more dramatically, so to be able to move more air for you to hear those details in the low end, you'll need a larger speaker [this is also why headphones tend to be lossy in the low end. The speaker just isn't large enough]. Your average studio monitor is DESIGNED TO BE FLAT, so when you add something, that skews that perception, then you could be making questionable decisions in your mix.

  On 7/13/2011 at 10:37 PM, ryanmcallister said:

Most studio engineers are not mixing electronic music...

That doesn't really matter, dude. Getting a level, clean mix is universal. Your mix choices will change with style, but your modus operandi should really stay the same. Using a sub has nothing to do with mixing techno vs reggae. I had the pleasure of meeting Nathaniel Kunkel a few years ago, and he really opened up my perception to how simple the whole process is. I also have a buddy that's a full time engineer at Interscope, and he wouldn't be caught dead using a sub for studio mixes. Live sound, definitely, but that's a whole different beast.

It's physics vs. psychology folks.

Last post.

LAWLoLAWL you're are purposely not trying to learn anything from this discussion and appear to be stubborn wrong dude. My 100 dollar HD280 headphones are pretty nice for headphones and THEY START MAKING A FUCKING HUUUUUUGE DIVE AT ABOUT 120hz. Every monitor and room setup is different, some produce more low lows than others but in general of course a sub is going to be able to support your lows better than your monitors alone. Like Ryan said a lot of sound engineers mix music that they don't want to have much if any sub bass in at all and have nothing prominent low lows in general. They use a spectrum analyzer to just take a peak at what's going on down there, nearly blindly turning that stuff down or they filter down everything low enough that they can't hear without a subwoofer. Subwoofers are filled with misconceptions apparently.

WHY YOU SHOULD BE MIXING WITH A SUBWOOFER

Why the fuck would they make 600 dollar reference subs for general purpose mixing (2.1 not for movies) from so many companies. If every speaker was able to accurately reproduce frequencies below 70hz we would never fucking need subwoofers in general.

Where I work, I get a discount off of KRK Systems.. contemplating getting a pair of Rokit 8's and the appropriate subwoofer - worth it? They seem like quality to me.

How much is the discount? There is a lot of competition in that budget price range on monitors.

I believe it is 50% off then 10% off that.

Damn, that's an awesome discount dude, if it's only on KRKs than at that price their really shouldn't be much if any competition.

Well I get a discount for many products, we carry Audio Technica (debating on getting headphones), Denon/DJ, KRK, Ableton, Novation, Allen and Heath, etc and so forth.. not sure if the discount is the same on all these products though.. but yeah I think I'll get some KRKs

i've heard many many many many excellent tracks mixed on the rockits. i could knock em when compared to higher end stuff, but if you are looking in the market for some slightly cheaper monitors the krk's seem to do a really good job. and they have that sub as well so a complete krk system should be uber-compatible with itself.

Great thanks Ryan. That is exactly what I wanted to hear lol. Don't want to spend too much money but I want decent quality as well.

  On 7/12/2011 at 3:45 AM, chaosmachine said:

Get a pair of Behringer Truth B2030A's. Can be had for under $300 (these are listed at $145 each):

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002Z82M6/_0-20

 

Flat response (with adjustable curves), very loud (bass that can shake walls), active (no amp required), and reliable. Had mine for 5 years.

Gotta be the worse speakers I've heard. Flat is definitely how I describe the sound. Far play if they work for you but to my ears they sounded very muffled when I heard them in the shop.

My advise is to pick up on old hifi say from the 90s with preferable 3 way or more speakers and a reasonable sized woofer with vents which has a good rep. You'll get pretty damn good quality for maybe no more than £30-40. I use an old Aiwa hifi which admitedly I have increased the bass and hi's on but I'm used to it and find I can do pretty good mixes with these speakers now. Good luck!

stopped reading the thread halfway thru, but :/ i think subwoofers can supplement a flat monitor system very well, by simply extending the range of frequencies you're hearing. just sort out your crossover-filters and you're golden.

even so, i think flatness is very overrated & i agree with the dude's post just above me, i'd just get a simple system like that + a decent software EQ to "flatten out" any unflatness :/ maybe i'd also add a big-ass bass bin, just to get W. Braintree's panties in a bunch <3

braintree i <3 u but go read some stuff or talk to someone

It's best to mix music only with a sub.

i have 2 subs i wear like headphones

but in all seriousness i guess i'll be using this pair of powered speakers i found. they are like computer speakers but much larger. the bass distorts when too loud which sucks, there is a volume, treble, and bass knob on the back of one which also bothers me a bit because they have to be set and how do i know where to set? i guess all the knobs at 12 o'clock would be a fair guess. i think it might take some tweaking