Budget Field Recorder + XLR jacks

hi guys, i need an advice. ive been desperately looking for a field recorder for so long, now its time i finally get one. i know its a very expensive tool, but instead of recording on my iphone i think it would be better to record on a low budget field recorder since i cant afford an expensive one. are there any decent field recorders with XLR jacks for around 200-300 euro? Id appreciate it if someone could help me decide to get the best one for this money.

zoom h4

yea, i was just checking ZOOM products. ZOOM H-4N looks perfect, and then i saw ZOOM R8 that is even cheaper!!! NOW im confused...

zoom recorders are OK, i have a H2 and worked with the H4, both have very decent built in microphones and decent pre-amps. the price is OK as well, but the big downside is how damn flimsy they are. even with an additional protective slip-case, they are made out of light plastic and have the worst-feeling buttons (altho the h4 is a bit better than the h2). also, you mentioned you need a XLR connection so i'm assuming you already have a decent mic & the h4's built-in mics might be unneeded.

my advice, if on a budget: get a second-hand, yet relatively modern (NetMD) MiniDisc recorder. yeh im serious, you'll have a bunch of recording space, a usb connection to get your sound on your computer, and a large choice of different models, some of which are built like tanks! those things are amazing value-for-money nowadays.

the newest zoom - the H4N. H4 was first, then H2, now H4N. N is best

Considering im going to use XLR mics, do you think ZOOM R8 would be a better deal instead of ZOOM H-4N? i mean its also a sampler and can control Cubase which is the DAW i use.

features: combined 8-Track Multitrack SD-Card Recorder, USB-Audiointerface 24-Bit/96KHz, DAW Controller and 8-Voices Pad-Sampler. Recorder: 8-Track-Playback, 2 Track thomann Recording at the same time, 2x XLR/1/4" TR Inputs with 48-V-Phantom Power, over 150 DSP-Effects, recording on SD/SDHC-Cards up to 32 GB WAV-Format with 44,1/48 kHz with 16 or 24 Bit, build-in Stereo-Mic, current supply via Battery (4 x AA), USB or included thomann Power Supply, two R8-Units can be combined via USB, incl. 2 GB SD-Card, 1.5 GB Drum-Loops, Steinberg Cubase LE DAW Recording Software for Mac/PC.

would it be suitable for field recording? or ZOOM H-4N is better for this task?

mostly every unit is good for field recording, as long as it's sturdy enough and battery life is good-- your sound quality will be maybe 90% your microphones and 10% the recorder's pre-amp. just get something solid and inexpensive imo: better invest in mics.

also consider that you can use XLR plugs on other connectors than XLR with converters :)

  On 7/17/2011 at 11:16 PM, iep said:

your sound quality will be maybe 90% your microphones and 10% the recorder's pre-amp.

 

also consider that you can use XLR plugs on other connectors than XLR with converters :)

I like what you said except for these two things, haha. I am becoming a snob but I recorded some stuff w/very nice mics recently through 2 different sets of preamps and was pretty shocked. Pres are very important, I'd say 50/50 really.

Also if you're planning on using phantom power you should know what you're doing re: converters.

About the R8 - if it does more for you, go for it. I haven't used it, so I don't know. Portability is key for me with these little guys, so I like small things.

  On 7/17/2011 at 11:40 PM, A/D said:

  On 7/17/2011 at 11:16 PM, iep said:

your sound quality will be maybe 90% your microphones and 10% the recorder's pre-amp.

 

also consider that you can use XLR plugs on other connectors than XLR with converters :)

 

I like what you said except for these two things, haha. I am becoming a snob but I recorded some stuff w/very nice mics recently through 2 different sets of preamps and was pretty shocked. Pres are very important, I'd say 50/50 really.

 

Also if you're planning on using phantom power you should know what you're doing re: converters.

 

About the R8 - if it does more for you, go for it. I haven't used it, so I don't know. Portability is key for me with these little guys, so I like small things.

heh, i agree completely but he said he was on a budget, + lugging around external pre-amps can get messy. true about the phantom power btw, that's a problem with some units when using a xlr->minijack plug, but ofcoz it depends on if you're using mics that need it.

the r8, looks flimsy to me, but could be nice if you're doing field recording with a laptop and a bunch of different mics? oh wait, the catch is that it's 8-track, but only has 2 inputs and can record 2 tracks simultaneously :/

Ok, i go for ZOOM H-4N then, going to order one this week. GOD, a dream is about to become true...

  On 7/17/2011 at 11:40 PM, A/D said:

  On 7/17/2011 at 11:16 PM, iep said:

your sound quality will be maybe 90% your microphones and 10% the recorder's pre-amp.

 

also consider that you can use XLR plugs on other connectors than XLR with converters :)

 

I like what you said except for these two things, haha. I am becoming a snob but I recorded some stuff w/very nice mics recently through 2 different sets of preamps and was pretty shocked. Pres are very important, I'd say 50/50 really.

it may be moot--but i'd still say that preamps are even less than 10%. mics not only count for the fidelity (the trueness of the recording) but they can also give so much extra color just by positioning, movement, capsule type, acoustical interplay, nawmean? preamps are just needed tools, mics are instruments

maybe not relevant to OP as he needs xlr, but for discussion...

i have an old h4, love it, but I kinda think i'd love a new one more. h4n seems much more durable, but they are a little big, i'd like something a little bit more portable. i just was reading yesterday about the new zoom h2n, has 5 mic capsules in it for cool stereo, 4-channel surround, mid-side recording and whatnot. i think i'm going to hold out until september and get that one. doesn't have xlr though, but it's a little smaller which is nice.

[youtubehd]0GMgHPNqEXs[/youtubehd]

  On 7/18/2011 at 12:27 AM, iep said:

it may be moot--but i'd still say that preamps are even less than 10%. mics not only count for the fidelity (the trueness of the recording) but they can also give so much extra color just by positioning, movement, capsule type, acoustical interplay, nawmean? preamps are just needed tools, mics are instruments

yeah, this is totally another thread, but after doing some comparisons I stand by my numbers. After I got the positioning, etc where I liked it, I was surprised to hear one recording sound dead and muddy, and the other clear and beautiful. Bad preamps . . never again.

But hell yeah, don't lug around preamps for a portable recorder. Defeats the whole purpose imo.

Now let's add mics to the discussion that are somewhat in the same price range - I'll need one at some point.

My experience with a set of Rode NT5's has always been outstandingly positive. That or a Rode NTG-2 shotgun. Can't really compare other options though as these are pretty much all I've used other than my H4.

edit: ...for field recording

I know fuck all about the technical specs of microphones, could someone summarize - in general - what's important, in what aspects do mics differ, what will an expensive mic do that a non-expensive one won't?

I'll buy a new camera at some point and I need an external mic to go with it. My experience with the mic of the Canon XL-2 has always been very positive, the only downside I noticed is that there is quite a bit of white noise when recording in an otherwise quiet environment. So it's not that great for subtle field recordings and stuff, but it always amazes me how it captures full, saturated sounds e.g. a loud city at rush hour or a restaurant with many people talking. I don't know what different types of microphones there are, it says mine is a "stereo shotgun condenser mic" - whatever that is. But I think I'd like to have that same type again, only a better quality version with less hiss ... I hope such a thing exists and doesn't cost a fortune.

Well you have the basics like the type of microphone. Dynamic microphones are your starting point. A good SM57 can be used for pretty much anything. Condenser microphones often are much better quality, but they are much more sensitive, so you wouldn't be sticking them next to a snare drum or a guitar amp. Also when you buy a condenser you will probably see that it requires phantom power which you are going to need to have on your audio card/pre-amp/mixer. Then you have boutique mics like ribbon microphones and all that, again very expensive and very sensitive.

Next you have your polar patterns to consider. These are the ways different mics pick up what's around them. Most common is cardioid which is sort of like an inverted heart shape, picks up mostly in front with a little bit around the sides. Then you go to hyper-cardioid which is a little more defined in the front, all the way to a shotgun mic which is very focused on what it is pointing directly at. Shotguns are like the snipers of the mic world, you can point it at something across the street and it will pick just that up and everything else will be significantly lower in the mix. On the other end of the spectrum you have omnidirectional and stuff like that which means the mic pretty much picks up everything 360 degrees around it.

Thirdly you just want to consider the response curve given a mic. This outlines the flatness of the frequency spectrum that the mic picks up. It will tell you where the mic boosts and cuts a little. This is what gives a mic it's individual character. Unlike studio monitors, the response curve does not always have to be perfectly flat, that would sound boring.

Other than that it's all just boring tech specs that really don't matter I don't think unless you are an electrical engineer. Oh maybe one other thing would be the sensitivity of the mic, this could be relevant to the application. For normal stuff whatever, but when you get into foley work and stuff like that if you want to record the sound of two dust mites making love you are going to need something with a really low noise-floor (meaning the noise that all mics have would have to be really quiet on this mic because you are going to be making up a lot of gain trying to get something that is very very very quiet to be a loudness that is comfortable). This information is dictated in db's but I'll be honest I've never been great at reading those charts.

Biggest thing with mics is just getting a chance to try them and know them for yourself. Everybody has an arsenal that they swear by and will claim that is the bees knees, but really they just maybe haven't used everything else and that's the best of what they know. See if you can find yourself a studio that would let you play around with different mics, or go to your local music store and buy a bunch and just take them back within 30 days if that's their policy. You'll know just by hearing a mic what you like, tech specs will tell you next to nothing.

  On 7/24/2011 at 3:51 PM, Terpentintollwut said:

I know fuck all about the technical specs of microphones, could someone summarize - in general - what's important, in what aspects do mics differ, what will an expensive mic do that a non-expensive one won't?

 

I'll buy a new camera at some point and I need an external mic to go with it. My experience with the mic of the Canon XL-2 has always been very positive, the only downside I noticed is that there is quite a bit of white noise when recording in an otherwise quiet environment. So it's not that great for subtle field recordings and stuff, but it always amazes me how it captures full, saturated sounds e.g. a loud city at rush hour or a restaurant with many people talking. I don't know what different types of microphones there are, it says mine is a "stereo shotgun condenser mic" - whatever that is. But I think I'd like to have that same type again, only a better quality version with less hiss ... I hope such a thing exists and doesn't cost a fortune.

How much are you looking to spend?

Thanks for that explanation (although I will have to read that again a good couple of times) - so apparently I've been working with a shotgun mic all these years. It doesn't really get rid of that much sound around the radius, but it does do a quite good job picking up what I'm pointing it at, and it creates a beautiful recreation of the environment recorded in by making good use of the stereo channels. It's perfect in my book, if it wasn't for that pretty noticeable hiss. I do have my ways of getting rid of background noise, but of course it lowers the quality quite a bit and it's not very professional. I don't need to record the dustmites, but I keep thinking of the film Hard Candy that had these amazing dialogue scenes with barely any background noise. I'd love to be able to do that...

Oh and I'm hoping to spend as little as possible of course, I'm also willing to buy a used one if it's in good condition, but my limit would probably be around 350-400 euros. I have no idea whether that's realistic.

i'd definitely take a look then at the shotguns offered by Rode. check out the NTG-1 or NTG-2. great mics.

Hey, they even look affordable! I'm trying to get the specs on my XL-2's mic for comparison, but can't seem to find any. It only ever says "detachable shotgun condenser microphone", but no further info.

It's actually really sad that I'm looking to buy a new camera as the XL-2 is a beautiful piece of equipment, BUT it's not HD and I don't think there is any way of ever "upgrading" it. The EOS-series is getting cheaper and cheaper. It's sad as much more money had to be spent on the XL-2 and it's only about five years old, but there's no point in moping. I should embrace the new opportunity. I may need an external field recorder as well as the downside of the EOS cams is their poor handling of audio (apparently they don't even give you a way of making sure there even IS an audio signal coming through ... ), but they do come with the option of external input, thankfully. But I'm not sure that will be enough to power the mic ... ?

I bought a NTG-2 recently for film stuff (shooting with a 550d, recording audio into a zoom h2 I've had for some time) and it seemed like the best value when I was reading up. It was part of a deal with a boom, dead cat, little pistol pyeeeow grip and cables too which was nice. It's mono, but when monitoring through the H2 (and later models too no doubt) I can flip on mono mix. Stereo environmental stuff I use the H2's mics. The NTG-2 you can plug into your interface and use phantom power while at home, then out and about you stick am AA battery in it. There's no off switch so the battery will constantly be in use, supposed to last hundreds of hours though. The NTG-1 only has phantom. The H4N can provide phantom power but I have a feeling this'll destroy your recorder's batteries pretty quickly.

And on the EOS audio thing, me I don't record audio into it but there's an alternative firmware that add an incredible amount of extra functionality to the camera (builds for most models, but not 7D I think) http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Firmware_Wiki

guys, stop teasing me, mercy me! im going to give all my last money for ZOOM H-4N and the accessories and you are talking about shotgun mics! ffkkkkkk, i want one...

Sorry man, I hijacked your thread

So the Rode ones are mono ... ? I read that's standard for recording dialogue and stuff, yet I'm really also a field recorder guy, and that's a bit of a letdown, I like my two channels ...

edit: I heard the 7D isn't as good anyway. Does the 550 let you record more than 25 fps? I don't need any technical gimmick shenanigans, but slow-mo is a real basic element for me. I always had to create them in post using a program, and that's never as good.

  On 7/25/2011 at 2:13 PM, Terpentintollwut said:

I read that's standard for recording dialogue and stuff

Yep

  On 7/25/2011 at 2:13 PM, Terpentintollwut said:

Does the 550 let you record more than 25 fps? I don't need any technical gimmick shenanigans, but slow-mo is a real basic element for me. I always had to create them in post using a program, and that's never as good.

Yeah I mostly stick to 1080p at 24, but you can shoot at 60 fps if you shoot 720p. Look into Twixtor for slowing down your footage. The workflow is a bit annoying but it gets good results.