How do you build a song?

Since this is a primarily IDM forum, I'm assuming it will be the "bottom-up" approach. Either that or in whatever way people want. That is my personal way of doing it...if I find something cool in my noodling, I work with it. That said, I often do songs starting with a melody/lick on guitar - as that is my main instrument. I'm interested to see the responses.

"bottom up"?

When writing electronic tracks, I usually start with the peak of a song. Just to get the levels and sound design right. Then I work on the buildup and sequencing after that.

Guitar based tracks are a more linear approach. I usually just jam things out along to a clicktrack Reaper using a single guitar and then build around the initial improvisation. Works really well for prog stuff.

Lately I've been trying to figure out how to mix the two techniques. Usually I don't have the patience to sit down and sequence my improvisations by hand, or learn how to play songs I've written in Buzz.

  On 8/1/2011 at 5:39 AM, modey said:

"bottom up"?

 

When writing electronic tracks, I usually start with the peak of a song. Just to get the levels and sound design right. Then I work on the buildup and sequencing after that.

 

Guitar based tracks are a more linear approach. I usually just jam things out along to a clicktrack Reaper using a single guitar and then build around the initial improvisation. Works really well for prog stuff.

 

Lately I've been trying to figure out how to mix the two techniques. Usually I don't have the patience to sit down and sequence my improvisations by hand, or learn how to play songs I've written in Buzz.

cool cool. To clarify, Bottom up means from the lowest frequencies up. this is in a compositional sense. So do you do the bass/drums first or whatever is the focal point of the song etc

Nah, I don't have a rule as to what I put down first, usually though it's a melody or a chord progression that I have in my head.

  On 8/1/2011 at 6:07 AM, modey said:

Nah, I don't have a rule as to what I put down first, usually though it's a melody or a chord progression that I have in my head.

right on. Ditto with me save for its usually guitar parts first. Some people are very...strict about it...

i don't have many rules but i have tried to analyze what my mostly impulsive and spontaneous approach tends to be like.

- make a cool synth from scratch and make some form of melody / tweak a sample, basically the meat of the song

- bass wobble

- kick, snare and hihats

- percussive elements

- more synths, play around with the theme of the track

- regurgitate all kinds of contrasting elements so that i can manage to get a sense of how the track should evolve

- put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them, remove that which isn't working

- freeze/bounce audio elements based on what could be compressed and eq'd together

- put effects, sweeps and whatnot, process stuff with additional effects

- additional processing. As I usually put most initial care in the melody department this is where I start giving the drums and percussion some TLC, as well as general build up FX.

- bounce it! this is where noobs usually think their track is finished.

- listen to the track alot, listen to different music then go back, process it with a blanker state of mind.. the more time i give this process the better the track gets.

- spend ages getting the kick and snare to sit right in the mix, as i dont have a state of the art sound system this is where i need to compare with alot of material out there. i usually do most compression and EQ here rather than at the end of the track because i want to listen to the song when i'm making it the way it will be heard when it's done, otherwise there's a risk i'll make big mistakes that i can't fix with mastering.

- bounce a second version, redo the above process, try to add stuff, make it more interesting.

- usually around the 4th version the track starts getting passable but who knows. maybe some overall compression, mastering and final touches will make this feel finished. unless there's been some grave mistake in the process or something that i thought worked but didn't, i'll try to change it.

In general I find the best results and most fun when I go back to a track that I haven't touched in a really long time, otherwise I'll get "song finishing urgency" and that will affect the quality and enjoyment of the track. When the track has some semblance of a lifespan before it's even finished it gets to mature in a sense, which will really help in making judgments about how it could be improved.

  On 8/1/2011 at 5:32 AM, Marc O said:

Since this is a primarily IDM forum, I'm assuming it will be the "bottom-up" approach. Either that or in whatever way people want. That is my personal way of doing it...if I find something cool in my noodling, I work with it. That said, I often do songs starting with a melody/lick on guitar - as that is my main instrument. I'm interested to see the responses.

there is no top and there is no bottom. you throw some crap at the wall; most of it falls off. you keep what doesn't fall off (or, "sticks" in technical lingo), mix it up with a bunch more stuff, then throw THAT at the wall. after many rounds of this, there will only be small, little traces of the first few throws, but they will still add to the overall composition of your blob. next step is to upload it to the internet so people can ignore it and/or be all "cool track bro"

a lot of improvisations and blending them together or layering. then according to the results i choose what kind of approach i should take to progress it

  On 8/1/2011 at 6:15 AM, chimera slot mom said:

i don't have many rules but i have tried to analyze what my mostly impulsive and spontaneous approach tends to be like.

- make a cool synth from scratch and make some form of melody / tweak a sample, basically the meat of the song

- bass wobble

- kick, snare and hihats

- percussive elements

- more synths, play around with the theme of the track

- regurgitate all kinds of contrasting elements so that i can manage to get a sense of how the track should evolve

- put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them, remove that which isn't working

- freeze/bounce audio elements based on what could be compressed and eq'd together

- put effects, sweeps and whatnot, process stuff with additional effects

- additional processing. As I usually put most initial care in the melody department this is where I start giving the drums and percussion some TLC, as well as general build up FX.

- bounce it! this is where noobs usually think their track is finished.

- listen to the track alot, listen to different music then go back, process it with a blanker state of mind.. the more time i give this process the better the track gets.

- spend ages getting the kick and snare to sit right in the mix, as i dont have a state of the art sound system this is where i need to compare with alot of material out there. i usually do most compression and EQ here rather than at the end of the track because i want to listen to the song when i'm making it the way it will be heard when it's done, otherwise there's a risk i'll make big mistakes that i can't fix with mastering.

- bounce a second version, redo the above process, try to add stuff, make it more interesting.

- usually around the 4th version the track starts getting passable but who knows. maybe some overall compression, mastering and final touches will make this feel finished. unless there's been some grave mistake in the process or something that i thought worked but didn't, i'll try to change it.

 

In general I find the best results and most fun when I go back to a track that I haven't touched in a really long time, otherwise I'll get "song finishing urgency" and that will affect the quality and enjoyment of the track. When the track has some semblance of a lifespan before it's even finished it gets to mature in a sense, which will really help in making judgments about how it could be improved.

that was actually a really informative and interesting answer. thanks. "this is where the noobs think their track is done" i like it. I will now bounce my tracks 4 times and see if they get any better. but seriously, i will do that.

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXR8uWAesVw

  On 8/1/2011 at 8:16 AM, hahathhat said:

next step is to upload it to WATMM where people will ignore it unless it's a blatant analord ripoff in which case they'll fall over each other in order to ejaculate over it

fixt

  On 8/1/2011 at 8:24 AM, iamabe said:

  On 8/1/2011 at 6:15 AM, chimera slot mom said:

i don't have many rules but i have tried to analyze what my mostly impulsive and spontaneous approach tends to be like.

- make a cool synth from scratch and make some form of melody / tweak a sample, basically the meat of the song

- bass wobble

- kick, snare and hihats

- percussive elements

- more synths, play around with the theme of the track

- regurgitate all kinds of contrasting elements so that i can manage to get a sense of how the track should evolve

- put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them, remove that which isn't working

- freeze/bounce audio elements based on what could be compressed and eq'd together

- put effects, sweeps and whatnot, process stuff with additional effects

- additional processing. As I usually put most initial care in the melody department this is where I start giving the drums and percussion some TLC, as well as general build up FX.

- bounce it! this is where noobs usually think their track is finished.

- listen to the track alot, listen to different music then go back, process it with a blanker state of mind.. the more time i give this process the better the track gets.

- spend ages getting the kick and snare to sit right in the mix, as i dont have a state of the art sound system this is where i need to compare with alot of material out there. i usually do most compression and EQ here rather than at the end of the track because i want to listen to the song when i'm making it the way it will be heard when it's done, otherwise there's a risk i'll make big mistakes that i can't fix with mastering.

- bounce a second version, redo the above process, try to add stuff, make it more interesting.

- usually around the 4th version the track starts getting passable but who knows. maybe some overall compression, mastering and final touches will make this feel finished. unless there's been some grave mistake in the process or something that i thought worked but didn't, i'll try to change it.

 

In general I find the best results and most fun when I go back to a track that I haven't touched in a really long time, otherwise I'll get "song finishing urgency" and that will affect the quality and enjoyment of the track. When the track has some semblance of a lifespan before it's even finished it gets to mature in a sense, which will really help in making judgments about how it could be improved.

 

that was actually a really informative and interesting answer. thanks. "this is where the noobs think their track is done" i like it. I will now bounce my tracks 4 times and see if they get any better. but seriously, i will do that.

agreed. I did not expect to read anything worthwhile in this thread. Great post Chimera Slot Mom! I am one of those noobs that bounces the track once and usually stops there. My problem is that by the time I finally make that big wav file I am tired of the track and want to start something new. I guess that's what separates the men from the boys.

I especially like this line:

"put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them" I will try this.

  On 8/1/2011 at 1:46 PM, Hanratty said:

 

agreed. I did not expect to read anything worthwhile in this thread. Great post Chimera Slot Mom! I am one of those noobs that bounces the track once and usually stops there. My problem is that by the time I finally make that big wav file I am tired of the track and want to start something new. I guess that's what separates the men from the boys.

 

I think that's what the 'let it sit/listen to other music' thing is for. I have the same problem sometimes. I get absolutely exhausted by some tracks, and just have to take some time away.

I usually build a couple good synth sounds in FM8, then I just build something interesting- a drum pattern or melody or crazy noise effect, then I build the rest of the track from there. I usually work very linearly, from the beginning of a track to the end. I've tried to write multiple segments and then space them out, but for me that approach just doesn't work; I can't get it to make sense in my head.

Like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOXgCIF8eqg

  On 8/1/2011 at 6:15 AM, chimera slot mom said:

i don't have many rules but i have tried to analyze what my mostly impulsive and spontaneous approach tends to be like.

- make a cool synth from scratch and make some form of melody / tweak a sample, basically the meat of the song

- bass wobble

- kick, snare and hihats

- percussive elements

- more synths, play around with the theme of the track

- regurgitate all kinds of contrasting elements so that i can manage to get a sense of how the track should evolve

- put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them, remove that which isn't working

- freeze/bounce audio elements based on what could be compressed and eq'd together

- put effects, sweeps and whatnot, process stuff with additional effects

- additional processing. As I usually put most initial care in the melody department this is where I start giving the drums and percussion some TLC, as well as general build up FX.

- bounce it! this is where noobs usually think their track is finished.

- listen to the track alot, listen to different music then go back, process it with a blanker state of mind.. the more time i give this process the better the track gets.

- spend ages getting the kick and snare to sit right in the mix, as i dont have a state of the art sound system this is where i need to compare with alot of material out there. i usually do most compression and EQ here rather than at the end of the track because i want to listen to the song when i'm making it the way it will be heard when it's done, otherwise there's a risk i'll make big mistakes that i can't fix with mastering.

- bounce a second version, redo the above process, try to add stuff, make it more interesting.

- usually around the 4th version the track starts getting passable but who knows. maybe some overall compression, mastering and final touches will make this feel finished. unless there's been some grave mistake in the process or something that i thought worked but didn't, i'll try to change it.

 

In general I find the best results and most fun when I go back to a track that I haven't touched in a really long time, otherwise I'll get "song finishing urgency" and that will affect the quality and enjoyment of the track. When the track has some semblance of a lifespan before it's even finished it gets to mature in a sense, which will really help in making judgments about how it could be improved.

This is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for! Thanks more!

  On 8/1/2011 at 12:25 PM, modey said:

  On 8/1/2011 at 8:16 AM, hahathhat said:

next step is to upload it to WATMM where people will ignore it unless it's a blatant analord ripoff in which case they'll fall over each other in order to ejaculate over it

fixt

lol

I don't think I have any set pattern to the way I start songs. Often times its started by what I feel i'm weakest at or what currently has my attention. For instance I found my melodic work to be the weakest aspect back in 2009, so I'd start all my songs with chord progressions first, build all the elements around that. That way I wouldn't skimp over it and continue to grow as an artist.

That being said, I think if you get quick enough at your setup/studio, you can make the elements as quickly as you can think about them in your head and plop out songs in an couple minutes.

808 then 303 then 101

drums first, then some pathetic attempts at making melodies with a few retarded synth lines, then sub bass to match the retarded melodies. then i slap the track with the genre musique concrete to compensate for a complete lack of melody and/or musicality

I usually find an analord track to copy, rip that off, then post it in YLC.

*ejaculates*

I usually start with a melody or chord progression first. Sometimes I just start making beats and then fit a bassline around it. Probably 80% of the time I start with a riff/hook/melody first though.

I've got a mate who lives about 10 mins from me who literally makes 5 new tunes a week or something nuts like that and a lot are pretty decent. The guy has ridiculous talent. I mean he's making slightly different stuff from me. He calls my tunes with deep pads 'Jarre music' lol.

  On 8/1/2011 at 5:32 AM, Marc O said:

How do you build a song?

I usually start with a hammer. Although, sometimes they're like those Ikea sets that don't require any screws.

  On 8/1/2011 at 10:02 PM, hardcode said:

drums first, then some pathetic attempts at making melodies with a few retarded synth lines, then sub bass to match the retarded melodies. then i slap the track with the genre musique concrete to compensate for a complete lack of melody and/or musicality

that's the way of the future

  On 8/1/2011 at 6:15 AM, chimera slot mom said:

i don't have many rules but i have tried to analyze what my mostly impulsive and spontaneous approach tends to be like.

- make a cool synth from scratch and make some form of melody / tweak a sample, basically the meat of the song

- bass wobble

- kick, snare and hihats

- percussive elements

- more synths, play around with the theme of the track

- regurgitate all kinds of contrasting elements so that i can manage to get a sense of how the track should evolve

- put some minutes of space between the passages that differ the most and try to connect them, remove that which isn't working

- freeze/bounce audio elements based on what could be compressed and eq'd together

- put effects, sweeps and whatnot, process stuff with additional effects

- additional processing. As I usually put most initial care in the melody department this is where I start giving the drums and percussion some TLC, as well as general build up FX.

- bounce it! this is where noobs usually think their track is finished.

- listen to the track alot, listen to different music then go back, process it with a blanker state of mind.. the more time i give this process the better the track gets.

- spend ages getting the kick and snare to sit right in the mix, as i dont have a state of the art sound system this is where i need to compare with alot of material out there. i usually do most compression and EQ here rather than at the end of the track because i want to listen to the song when i'm making it the way it will be heard when it's done, otherwise there's a risk i'll make big mistakes that i can't fix with mastering.

- bounce a second version, redo the above process, try to add stuff, make it more interesting.

- usually around the 4th version the track starts getting passable but who knows. maybe some overall compression, mastering and final touches will make this feel finished. unless there's been some grave mistake in the process or something that i thought worked but didn't, i'll try to change it.

 

In general I find the best results and most fun when I go back to a track that I haven't touched in a really long time, otherwise I'll get "song finishing urgency" and that will affect the quality and enjoyment of the track. When the track has some semblance of a lifespan before it's even finished it gets to mature in a sense, which will really help in making judgments about how it could be improved.

As your music has a very high value to me this is very helpful thanks a ton. You did adress many issues I agonized about many times recently

I start with a feeling...

*pauses for momentum

then I CREATE!

but seriously if I don't like the sound of a sinewave on any give day it's not a good day for making music.