Iran vs US/Israel conflict escalating

  On 1/13/2012 at 12:03 AM, Awepittance said:

A lot the perceptions american soldiers have towards Iraqi insurgents is totally fictional and rooted in fantasy.

you can neither know the perception of the americans soldiers nor what the insurgents really are, but somehow you are able to draw this conclusion about soldiers who get to know iraqis first person.

  On 1/13/2012 at 3:58 AM, eugene said:

  On 1/13/2012 at 12:03 AM, Awepittance said:

A lot the perceptions american soldiers have towards Iraqi insurgents is totally fictional and rooted in fantasy.

 

you can neither know the perception of the americans soldiers nor what the insurgents really are, but somehow you are able to draw this conclusion about soldiers who get to know iraqis first person.

Yeah in all sincerity and non-trolling here, I think you're both kinda right. Some companies and battalions could have completely different perceptions (on the whole) regarding the same insurgent groups than others, based on leadership, history in a certain region, etc. It could literally be night and day experiences between, say, different patrols conducted in adjacent Bagdad neighborhoods. "A lot," let's say 50%+, is too high imo, but I'm sure your assumption is true for a notable amount. The war and its portrayal in the US media varies and the surreal disconnect between stateside and the middle east is huge. For the average soldier being deployed their perception is far different and likely more ignorant than say, a Israeli soldier perceptions of Hamas, or past GI perceptions of the Japanese/Germans in WW2, the Viet Cong in 'Nam, etc. Acceptable misinformation is even more rampant in this day and age. So it's completely understandable that handfuls of video game-raised pissants whose sole opinion of fighting Islamic insurgents is "let's kill some towelheads" end up in small groups that commit this kind of shit. Makes the majority of the US military actually doing its job professionally understandably pissed. It also throws far lesser infractions by US servicemen into unnecessary and distracting scrutiny. But the absolute mess starts once top brass distort and cover-up these things and right-wing pundits defend/deflect criticism of it on talk radio.

  On 1/13/2012 at 12:03 AM, Awepittance said:

'true' war in the sense of armies fighting other armies like in WW2 is most definitely horrifying. What the Iraq and Afghanistan invasion was, imo was not a 'war' in the traditional sense. Which in a lot of ways at least for me makes some of these disturbing videos like soldiers throwing puppies off cliffs, or laughing while they urinate on dead bodies even more disturbing.

 

in the Japan part of WW2 i can almost understand to a certain degree why american soldiers had so much animosity towards the japanese they were a very skilled fighting force. A lot the perceptions american soldiers have towards Iraqi insurgents is totally fictional and rooted in fantasy. At least in japan it wasn't really up for debate if official structure of the Japanese army was ruthless as fuck. But in iraq, anyone holding a gun who is dead deserves to get pissed on seemingly. I dont know, maybe its not different but it seems like it to me. .To me it just shows an even further detachment from the reality of what these soldiers are doing than ever before. Remember when that soldier in the video drops a bomb and kills around 50, his reaction was 'oh dude!' with a slight chuckle under his breath. I think that's the point we're at now

Yeah that's a good point about WW2 reference. The Japanese units most allies fought were insanely gung-ho, surrenders were unheard of until late in the war. Add the fact that extensive Japanese war crimes, especially in the Philippines, were well documented early on in the war, plus the horrendous conditions most US soldiers (many drafted too) were facing in the Pacific - well, then you can understand the trends of collecting "Jap" skulls and earlobes by Yankee GI's. The fact that on the homefront it was glorified with good ole' 40s racism in the press a surreal cherry on top. Not to mention soldiers were in the war for the long-haul, until victory, injury, or death. In Iraq and Afghanistan, much like in 'Nam, we've had entire "generations" of soldiers join, serve in tours, and leave service. And I agree, it isn't really a "war" in any true sense.

Like I mentioned earlier, the perceptions and general level of professionalism vary greatly, sometimes somewhat warranted, other times not. The reference to the bombing video highlights the fact that entire service branches, the USAF or USN vs. Army and Marine units on the ground, have completely different concepts and realities of the same exact conflict. I've seen videos of soldiers cheering an airstrike, and it's completely understandable because they've been shot at nonstop for hours. Compare that to the wikileaks video of the AH-64 strike, where the pilots are literally begging to shot at targets, even though they and their colleges on the ground are in no apparent danger. There was a multi-part PBS documentary on a recent aircraft carrier deployment to the Persian Gulf, and pilots in the same squadron had differing opinions on their mission there. Some were content that they didn't have to conduct any airstrikes (fyi - in the doc it's highlighted that the carrier deployment saw no combat engagements, just patrols), others were frustrated at the futility of being there but nonetheless ok with the state of things. That said, one guy was notably pissed that he wasn't able to engage in combat, he was literally disappointed. It's like training bombings weren't thrilling enough for the guy. And these were jet pilots - officers with 4-year educations and years of training. If those kind of tensions occur in a flying squadron, then of course internal conflicts and command breakdowns will occur on the ground.

All this ranting is making me sleepy

/comment

yeah, coming across one of your dead buddies who has had his genitals severed and stuffed in his mouth will, I imagine, change one's perspective on his adversary. The Japanese were pretty hardcore.

There's an interesting article about the Mossad doing false-flag operations in Pakistan, pretending they're CIA-agents, in order to have some terroristic group do their thing in Iran.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/01/13/false_flag?page=0,0

Personally, i think the only way situations like these to get resolved peacefully is to have some wikileaks kind of situation where all the skeletons in the closet are put in the open for everyone to see. These covert operations only invite more covert operations from all sides. It's arguably better than any type of WW2 kind of war - as it involves less civilians. But transparency is even better. It's even cheaper. Costs less time and effort. It creates trust. There's so much more win win, it's ridiculous they don't even seem to try. Perhaps they try, but they're just not good at it. (there's quite an amount of paranoid people in charge, i guess)

Lol that operation appears detrimental to U.S national security, yet still only the pakis get labelled as terrorists...

Here we go guys! The EU is about to lay some sanctions on Iran in hopes that they can use that as a leverage point to negotiate about their nuclear program

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9028340/EU-prepares-unprecedented-attack-on-Iranian-economy.html

  Quote

An embargo on Iran's oil is due to be agreed by EU foreign ministers on Monday, potentially depriving Tehran of a quarter of its total exports. This step, designed to maximise the pressure on Iran’s leaders to negotiate over their nuclear programme, is also a measure of the scale of concern.

 

Officials note a series of events, ranging from the storming of the British Embassy in Tehran to the regime’s threats to disrupt oil supplies in the Gulf, and judge that Iranian decision-making is becoming more belligerent and unpredictable.

 

“This is a dangerous moment. We’re coming to the point where options are narrowing and there’s very little fat left in the system,” said Paul Cornish, professor of international security at Bath University.