A thought about music and language

  On 3/8/2012 at 5:45 AM, Candiru said:

So lyrics have no value to some people? Sounds kind of forced and reactionary, like "we're IDM fans, fuck lyrics they're for pussies."

lol. pretty much. though I've probably read several hundred song lyrics on songmeanings.com over the past few years.

  On 3/8/2012 at 5:45 AM, Candiru said:

So lyrics have no value to some people? Sounds kind of forced and reactionary, like "we're IDM fans, fuck lyrics they're for pussies."

It's not forced at all, it's just a matter of what you enjoy in music, and for some people vocals and lyrics are of marginal interest/use

lyrics mean a lot to me. if i can't relate or i don't feel that the lyrics are good, i'm not too fond of the music. but i've always been sort of a wordy girl...

I can be very interested in lyrics actually. Some sang music I've listened to picked my interest and I went checking the lyrics on internet. As if I'm interested to know if the sense of the vocals corresponds to the sense I believe the artist/band put in his/her/their music.

That's just I'm naturally more attracted by music without vocals (as I already said).

Also, my thread title doesn't mean music is a language in a strict way. I mean, the only codes it has are the one we inherited because of our historical / cultural background. For me music is a way to communicate feelings in a relative way. A melody and it's rhythm won't tell you the musician just dropped his sandwich but will tell you something you will interpret in an emotive way which will depend on what you've heard before.

In that definition, very experimental works still "say" something because they still give you emotions.

Another precision about something I said before : a lot of sang music doesn't attract me because what I hear is the instruments doesn't say anything and just stand as a too poor background accompaniment of the voice. Maybe that has something to do with the ego of the singer.

  On 3/8/2012 at 5:45 AM, Candiru said:

So lyrics have no value to some people? Sounds kind of forced and reactionary, like "we're IDM fans, fuck lyrics they're for pussies."

  On 3/5/2012 at 12:35 AM, Candiru said:

True, Thom Yorke is really good at seamlessly blending his voice into the patchwork of the song. And a turn of phrase in his lyrics will stand out and add up to a very vivid or poignant moment, but it's still very much married to the music and vice versa. The lyrics add something substantial, but aren't the only draw of the music. I guess this is why I never got into Dylan. I need some lush sonic trippyness to sink into.

 

I've been listening to Turn On The Bright Lights a lot lately, and even though the lyrics are awkward and goofy, I think it actually adds a lot of flavor to the album. It seems like it could be taking a page from David Byrne, who can come across as an extremely odd, frantic aspergers guy observing everyday things and making them sound profound with his weird perspective. Paul Banks comes across in a similar way, but almost as a hokey jokester/date rapist who's always been socially challenged. I know now that it's unintentional, he's just a bad lyricist. But to me it works because it seems like most Post Punk bands have a frontman who appears batshit and unhinged or like an unreliable narrator. I just think it would have been really brilliant if it was intentional.

I can't listen to Dylan for the same reason. Actually, that's what turns me off from so many singer-songwriters. I never seek those artists out and rarely listen to new acoustic solo music, especially if the singing is mediocre. That said, I've enjoyed listening to Townes Van Zandt, but that's mostly because I'm drawn to the way his voice sounds and his actual lyrics are quite moving. I stumbled him by chance.

Turn On The Bright Lights is one of my favorite albums ever, and I'm glad to see someone articulate why his lyrics are appealing. When I think of the most emotionally moving lyrics for me personally, they're often strange and even non-sequitur. I find lyrics written non-literally, or even beyond clever rhyme and wordplay, quite brilliant sometimes. I suppose they trigger emotional connections in a primal way for certain people, much like a certain picture or smell could make some have a sudden fit of nostalgia or jump to a very vivid memory. That's why I've always liked R.E.M. It's also why I find Christian rock so fucking strange. Compare a U2 song off Joshua Tree or George Harrison classic to any hugely popular "Christian music hit" and it's night and day in terms of emotion and sincerity.

In other words, I don't get very involved, specific, or trying lyrics. I was always amazed when my friends could memorize dozens, if not hundreds of very specific lyrics from certain emo or hardcore bands (i.e. Brand New, Get Up Kids, Taking Back Sunday [never liked them much in particular]). Maybe I just don't like memorizing stuff. I on the other hand often mishear or tune out lyrics, unless they strike a strange chord. Here are some examples of what I'm talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9bHNrLbpSE

It's just about him at a convenience store. That's it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4JAmn3uIa0

These samples are pretty random, but coupled with the music they get a completely different vibe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INnFvMgET1E

Mostly silly, but there's a specific moment where he says "I had a dream last night but I forget what it was" and it just seemed way more deep for no apparent reason. Maybe it's his delivery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwTUAgU4d8w&ob=av2e

Pretty straightforward, but they seem to evoke a lot more than what's actually said, which I think is a sign of good songwriting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoH5MPIgM7c

The melancholy and tension of these lyrics is helped a lot by the backing music. In fact, they seem pretty dependent on each other.

All of these songs have vocals as focal points in the song, they aren't just other "instruments" or melodic lines. Still, they're not heavy-handed lyrically, but they come off as quite powerful (imo)

  On 3/5/2012 at 11:08 PM, Wall Bird said:

Before I leave. Here's something fun. Scientists recently had a breakthrough in the field of sonar communication between dolphins. As we know, dolphins emit a series of high frequency clicks that are reflected off of any objects before them and upon their return to the dolphin they depict the shape of the objects before them. Typical sonar stuff. What was recently discovered was that dolphins are then able to repeatedly render that exact sonic information and transmit it through the water to other dolphins. When the other dolphins receive this sonic signal they are able to perceive that exact image sent by the first dolphin. In this way dolphins have a visual language that uses sound as it's medium for communication.

 

So, what does this mean for the use of sound, and possibly music, as a form of communication?

Holy fuck I remember seeing an IMAX doc about that and it was mind-blowing. Also makes me curious about how it would feel to sense more frequencies (like certain other animals). Transmitting sonar visuals is beyond anything humans have developed in terms of auditory senses and communication, but it does spur on other questions. Why did certain societies develop certain musical scales and specific associations with, say, minor or major notes? Does sampling instead of interpolating a specific melody really make that much of difference to a listener, and when it does how much is memory/nostalgia versus aesthetics? Discussion of major versus minor or off-key music, especially vocals, is often in the context of social and ethnic history. That said, I have a close friend with synesthesia who finds certain tones most people wouldn't notice absolutely unbearable, and it goes along with her experience in choir. For example, she can't listen to Mary J Blige because she's so off-key at points. On the other hand, flat singers aren't an issue necessarily. I'm going off tangent, but I guess what I'm saying is there seems to be a closer natural connection between sound and communication than that of visual images, in general, and that is a fascinating thought.

  On 3/8/2012 at 5:36 AM, vamos scorcho said:

So I guess vox are best suited to melodic pop music... for me I don't generally think melodies are good without vocals unless they're of the 'classical' sort where the melody is slyly tied in with the complex harmonies underneath... most musicians these days aren't capable of that.

 

I enjoy Vox more when they have been 'fucked wit' like Mouse on Mars does, or Burial. Actually it seems that trend is getting bigger now... a Britney Spears song recently cut the vox up really well... I was pretty surprised hearing it and enjoyed it.

 

Straight singing is tiresome and relies too much on the personality of the singer, in my opinion.

Good observations. I think you're totally right, true vocal talent is less common (it's still around though, Adele being a good example), and instead when I hear a newer Britney Spears song, it really is more interesting than her older singles b/c her and her producers treat her voice as another instrument.

Like iron and wine. I love that man.

So here's a big part of why I love music over other art forms: Music is an artistic form of expression free of intrinsic meaning.

Language is used to represent ideas, and as such whenever I say the word "baseball", numerous images and associations spring into your mind. You look at a piece of visual art and a similar thing to language happens, because most visual art is made of mostly images that we know, representations of things or ideas. Other forms of art carry this baggage of meaning, causing them to really consider cultural and relational context.

But music doesn't do that (unless it deliberately tries to do so by referencing other music or mimicking real world sounds). When making music you can work outside of explicit meaning and really sculpt something emotionally or mentally impacting in a more direct way.

Adding lyrics to music completely changes it. It becomes a new form of art. This is fine. More than fine in fact. It can be awesome if done correctly.

The frustrating thing is that over the past 50-100 years, there's seemed to be a veil that's slipped over instrumental music. It's become much less prominent in popular music. If you listen to all the radio stations playing today's hits (besides dance stations), everything has lyrics. Why? What's made people lose their appreciation for music so much that "music" almost always means "music with vocals".

Music and poetry are two separate art forms, so lyrics are a hybrid art form. This is very important. I run into a lot of people that, when they think of music, they think of lyrics, which is really frustrating. Music that contains lyrics that are the primary focus is more poetry than music. Music is music.

  On 3/9/2012 at 8:07 PM, eugene said:

I was thinking recently of getting this image printed as a batch lot of stickers that I can just carry around with me and stick onto things as I see fit. Actually I'm more interested in the dislike version but I think its a solid idea.

On a related note : would it be relevant to make a study about the similarity between music from a country and the language of that same country ? What would we find out ?

If anyone have heard anything about that precise matter juste share the information please !

  On 4/4/2012 at 11:36 PM, Antape said:

On a related note : would it be relevant to make a study about the similarity between music from a country and the language of that same country ? What would we find out ?

 

If anyone have heard anything about that precise matter juste share the information please !

Oh man, I've often thought about this.