'Global Warming's Terrifying New Math'

  On 7/23/2022 at 5:04 PM, brian trageskin said:

ideology is cultism

and this as well

  On 7/23/2022 at 5:29 PM, zero said:

dude...I don't know if this somehow gets lost in translation due to the fact we are conversing via text. I am not referring to his ideology and morals. for that, I am in agreement that Zeff has not stopped going on and on about communism on here for however long know. by "changing his tune" I meant the tactics he uses to argue against people on here. his outward display of arrogance, and not willing to listen to an alternative. that communism is the best and only way, and everyone else is wrong. that is what I am talking about! and it really seems you blindly ignore this, because of your agreement with what he says about the Marxist cause.

please stop going on about liberals and westerners. it comes across as very presumptuous and condescending. 

and am I the internet capitalist you are referring to here? because if you read my previous posts, then you would see I said that I agree with Zeff, in that the current social / political systems do need to be overhauled. 

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It's extremely condescending but it's true. And it doesn't have to include you either, PDFs are free and as long are literate in any language then you can read. I'm literally a westerner myself and I have benefitted from the greed of both the United Kingdom and France which have given me a life of luxury as a working class person. Can the working class in the "third world" say the same?

That's the problem with sharing socialist ideas though - they require critical thinking and a lot of reading. Whereas right wing "theory" is either some weird esoteric shit like "the aryan race are extraterrestrial beings from a mythical land" or some ayn rand level toilet paper where a rich person pretends to be working class and lectures the working class as to why the rich must be our overlords.

As for the "internet capitalist" I'm talking about most people I come across on reddit and on this forum who champion pro-equality ideas until it requires changing the status quo (which is not pro-equality at all) who resort to insults (on this forum particularly) if anyone dares tell people that the first world countries in which we live keep the developping world in debt and oppression.

  On 7/23/2022 at 6:05 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

and this as well

Okay but nobody is above ideology. Any one who believes in something adheres to an ideology. People (especially centrists) like to think they're special or "neither left nor right" or "above politics" but everybody falls inside a category somewhere.

article on organized disinfo campaigning by oil industry going back decades https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62225696

it's hard to know exactly what the modern deception ecosystem looks like because major players include shady internet posting operations that are by nature kept covert. there must be networks of people who know where to procure such services, which operate in secrecy. cambridge analytica got blown up but there's no reason to think it was the only one. it's not.

enterprising journalists could perhaps dig up how political operators find these services

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:03 AM, trying to be less rude said:

article on organized disinfo campaigning by oil industry going back decades https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62225696

 

it's hard to know exactly what the modern deception ecosystem looks like because major players include shady internet posting operations that are by nature kept covert. there must be networks of people who know where to procure such services, which operate in secrecy. cambridge analytica got blown up but there's no reason to think it was the only one. it's not.

 

enterprising journalists could perhaps dig up how political operators find these services

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yeah.. they've been doing it forever. this doc goes into detail about it. 

  On 7/23/2022 at 5:29 PM, zero said:

dude...I don't know if this somehow gets lost in translation due to the fact we are conversing via text. I am not referring to his ideology and morals. for that, I am in agreement that Zeff has not stopped going on and on about communism on here for however long know. by "changing his tune" I meant the tactics he uses to argue against people on here. his outward display of arrogance, and not willing to listen to an alternative. that communism is the best and only way, and everyone else is wrong. that is what I am talking about! and it really seems you blindly ignore this, because of your agreement with what he says about the Marxist cause.

please stop going on about liberals and westerners. it comes across as very presumptuous and condescending. 

and am I the internet capitalist you are referring to here? because if you read my previous posts, then you would see I said that I agree with Zeff, in that the current social / political systems do need to be overhauled. 

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people often have problems of "[not being able to stop going on about something]" and you've spent pages discussing "about" me rather than explaining why im actually wrong which i think u shud reflect on.  maybe you are wrong and i'm right.  i think you drastically underestimate the evil perpetuated at this very moment by capitalism through its lackeys the owning class

capitalism is the resource allocator, the labor allocator, the labor consumer, the labor value upward distributor, capitalism controls every aspect of our lives at a level so deeply intertwined into our reality that we don't even think it's there anymore if we have sufficient privilege to ignore it.  could it maybe be that climate change is caused by capitalism? could it maybe be that the sequence of events that led us to climate change were caused by capitalism? look at cars in the US, once they became popular car companies lobbied the government to scrap old electric trollies, and they did it.  imagine if they said fuck off and expanded them, and the same happened in every country, and cars were an oddity.  one issue causing climate change solved, but capitalism forced us down this individualist path

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:03 AM, trying to be less rude said:

article on organized disinfo campaigning by oil industry going back decades https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-62225696

 

it's hard to know exactly what the modern deception ecosystem looks like because major players include shady internet posting operations that are by nature kept covert. there must be networks of people who know where to procure such services, which operate in secrecy. cambridge analytica got blown up but there's no reason to think it was the only one. it's not.

 

enterprising journalists could perhaps dig up how political operators find these services

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this stuff is absolutely terrifying

  On 7/23/2022 at 11:57 PM, milkface said:

Okay but nobody is above ideology. Any one who believes in something adheres to an ideology. People (especially centrists) like to think they're special or "neither left nor right" or "above politics" but everybody falls inside a category somewhere.

there's a huge difference between adherence to a single political ideology vs. multiple ones - adherence to ideas that are shared by different sides of the political spectrum, to be more precise. in my experience, those who fall in the 1st category tend to be cretins who see the world in black and white, 99.9% of the time. i should know, i used to be one of them.

  On 7/23/2022 at 11:47 PM, milkface said:

That's the problem with sharing socialist ideas though - they require critical thinking

i don't see how forcing your idiotic one size fits all solutions down people's throats is a good example of critical thinking skills. sounds like the opposite of it, if you ask me.

ideology... "I am already eating from the trashcan"

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:49 AM, brian trageskin said:

there's a huge difference between adherence to a single political ideology vs. multiple ones - adherence to ideas that are shared by different sides of the political spectrum, to be more precise. in my experience, those who fall in the 1st category tend to be cretins who see the world in black and white, 99.9% of the time. i should know, i used to be one of them.

i don't see how forcing your idiotic one size fits all solutions down people's throats is a good example of critical thinking skills. sounds like the opposite of it, if you ask me.

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how is socialism an "idiotic one size fits all solution"?  do you even know what it is?  it's worker control of the means of production.  I thought on this very page we just went over how the current controllers of the means of production, the owning class, have been controlling it in a way that literally caused climate change over the past decades

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:51 AM, ignatius said:

ideology... "I am already eating from the trashcan"

 

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don't get me wrong, capitalism is an idiotic one size fits all system too, in my book. not a fan of it, at all. but as zero pointed out earlier, the alternative you're in favor of, while interesting on paper, seems completely divorced from reality. human beans are and will always be, in my view, vicious creatures who will always seek power and find ways to exploit each other, no matter the political system, the ideology or whatever. corruption will always ruin whatever neat plan you or anybody else had in mind. 

- brian trageskin, PhD.

capitalism is literally freedom. it's the freedom to own your own business. griping about capitalism is just the latest trick narrative that people are falling for. the sleight if hand is conflating all the troubles of the world with the leading social system. nice shiny idea.

zeffo's a bot. he's here derailing climate topic for whatever supervisor or research he/they are up to

  On 7/24/2022 at 1:59 AM, brian trageskin said:

don't get me wrong, capitalism is an idiotic one size fits all system too, in my book. not a fan of it, at all. but as zero pointed out earlier, the alternative you're in favor of, while interesting on paper, seems completely divorced from reality. human beans are and will always be, in my view, vicious creatures who will always seek power and find ways to exploit each other, no matter the political system, the ideology or whatever. corruption will always ruin whatever neat plan you or anybody else had in mind. 

- brian trageskin, PhD.

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this is capitalist dogma.  you think that about yourself?  you think that about me and everyone in this thread?  you think that about the typical person?  no, you're talking out your ass with your anti-human comments

you think humanity is naturally evil so we need to design society such that there is an owning class above us to oppress us into working for our own good? lol

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:18 AM, trying to be less rude said:

capitalism is literally freedom. it's the freedom to own your own business.

freedom to own your own business lol interesting how you forgot to mention how this freedom is accessible proportional to one's wealth.  so yes, you are COMPLETELY right, capitalism IS freedom for the bourgeoisie.  that's the problem.

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:28 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

people often have problems of "[not being able to stop going on about something]" and you've spent pages discussing "about" me rather than explaining why im actually wrong which i think u shud reflect on.  maybe you are wrong and i'm right.  i think you drastically underestimate the evil perpetuated at this very moment by capitalism through its lackeys the owning class

yes Zeff, I discussed "about" you, because you push an agenda - promote communism any chance you get. therefore you have something you have to win in these discussions, and never give the other side a fair chance. this is not about me proving you wrong, because doing so means I have to get into a discussion as to why your beloved communism is "wrong"...and I'd rather slit my wrists than get into another argument about communism on watmm. 

why do you constantly assume you know what I'm thinking? that last line in the quote up there let's me know you think I'm an enemy. why? just because I don't support communism? therefore I'm automatically dumped into the pro-capitalism category? let me re-iterate for the 3rd or 4th time now in this thread - I am in agreement that a collectivist societal model makes a hell of a lot more sense than an individualist one. the more spread out and closed off we are to each other, does not lead to healthy lifestyles, nor mentalities. and it has totally fucked this planet's ecosystem. but are we able at a point in human existence to band together as tribes do and live out in the wilderness off the land, and stop all this never-ending construction? I don't think so. it's unrealistic. same with flipping the switch and making everything a Marxist, everything will work together perfectly, fairy land.

  On 7/24/2022 at 12:28 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

capitalism is the resource allocator, the labor allocator, the labor consumer, the labor value upward distributor, capitalism controls every aspect of our lives at a level so deeply intertwined into our reality that we don't even think it's there anymore if we have sufficient privilege to ignore it.  could it maybe be that climate change is caused by capitalism? could it maybe be that the sequence of events that led us to climate change were caused by capitalism? look at cars in the US, once they became popular car companies lobbied the government to scrap old electric trollies, and they did it.  imagine if they said fuck off and expanded them, and the same happened in every country, and cars were an oddity.  one issue causing climate change solved, but capitalism forced us down this individualist path

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yes, capitalism led to climate change. cars, energy, production of goods. all these factors contributed. all so we humans could buy more shit, drive to and fro, work in tall office buildings, fly in airplanes all over the world. all the creature comforts like computers, internet, watch porn, whatever. all those things advertised to us on a constant basis. and this is all so those dudes who moved to the top of their respective corporate professions could get more of those almighty dollars. greed, right? well the flip side of that is that they created companies to give other regular folks a way to earn a living in this system that we were all born into. this capitalist system that was put in place long before you and I were born, and is intertwined with humanity at this point...and is not going to be easy one to untangle.

bottom line - there isn't going to be an easy answer to any of these massive questions affecting the planet. and presuming that changing everything over to communism will magically fix all this, is completely far-fetched.

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:18 AM, trying to be less rude said:

capitalism is literally freedom. it's the freedom to own your own business.

capitalism is not just this though, it's also the arbitrary right to put a portion of the profit that was made on the back of your employees into your pocket. which is literally how capital is created, from what i understand. 

i'm not saying capitalism doesn't have its pros either. it seems to be the most efficient way human beans have found to create wealth, so far. maybe i just don't like the fact that it's so poorly regulated - which probably has nothing to do with capitalism per se. 

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:26 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:18 AM, trying to be less rude said:

capitalism is literally freedom. it's the freedom to own your own business.

freedom to own your own business lol interesting how you forgot to mention how this freedom is accessible proportional to one's wealth.  so yes, you are COMPLETELY right, capitalism IS freedom for the bourgeoisie.  that's the problem.

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It costs about 250 bucks to register a company. But you don't care about accuracy you just want to run everybody around in circles because you're a propagandists. Eat my asshole

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:36 AM, brian trageskin said:

capitalism is not just this though, it's also the arbitrary right to put a portion of the profit that was made on the back of your employees into your pocket. which is literally how capital is created, from what i understand. 

i'm not saying capitalism doesn't have its pros either. it seems to be the most efficient way human beans have found to create wealth, so far. maybe i just don't like the fact that it's so poorly regulated - which probably has nothing to do with capitalism per se. 

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Yeah, that is basically how I see it. Regulation can exist in a capitalist system. Even socialism can exist in a capitalist system. They are not mutually exclusive. The socialism of Bernie Sanders would not end capitalism in America. Bernie's socialist America is still capitalist. It just has better social programs. Of course there are always multiple definitions to words, but one of the core, Elemental definitions of the word capitalism is the simple right of the individual to own a business

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:26 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

anti-human

lol, never heard this term before but i like it!

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:26 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

you think humanity is naturally evil so we need to design society such that there is an owning class above us to oppress us into working for our own good? lol

maybe i should have made it clear that i'm only talking about a minor portion of humanity. also, what kind of stupid-ass straw man is this? lol 

edit: it's not just a straw man, it's also a false dilemma. you totally got me wrong on this. just because i think your solution is unrealistic and likely pretty stupid, doesn't mean i'm defending the status quo, duh.

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:38 AM, trying to be less rude said:

It costs about 250 bucks to register a company. But you don't care about accuracy you just want to run everybody around in circles because you're a propagandists. Eat my asshole

it's actually free if you are going to run your company as a DBA (doing business as) where you just use your name but this has no protections like an LLC etc. 

the thing about capitalism on a global scale is it's built on excluding entire populations from the system or exploiting them and their country's natural resources etc to make it work for the capitalist countries. that's what colonialism and slavery were all about right? i mean.. it's why the US knocked off all kinds of democratically elected leaders in central/south america/iran.. it's why corporations can sell products in other countries that are banned in western countries and on and on. 

it's also built on the idea of infinite growth which is obviously not supportable in the long term as we're seeing w/the many articles/videos etc in this thread. 

did a whole bunch of people get lifted out of poverty thanks to capitalism? sure but at the expense of the world and poor people and people excluded from the system. i mean.. has the Congo recovered from Leopold yet? nah.. and not from the democratically elected leader who was assassinated w/help of the CIA.. making way for a dictator who would 'play ball' w/western interests. 

anyway.. the history of it all is plain to see. it's not necessary to suggest that there's probably some better way since it seems obvious to anyone with empathy and compassion that "hey, maybe there is another way?" but people who worship the idea of "the free market" (how free is it though really) just get evangelical about it and come up w/all kinds of justifications and shit. it's a waste of time.  

we can go around in circles about compassionate capitalism, socialism, better safety nets and programs and healthcare and all that.. but at the end of the day it's gonna suck donkey balls in the USA because of this capitalist system and it's gonna be a bit ore  a lot better in in more socialist countries but even then there's always exploitation somewhere. there's always something shitty going on when you zoom in to see far reaches of making a buck in the west. globalism has it all interconnected and somewhere someone is doing the dirt.

TLDR: it is what it is.  christian fascism here we come. 

  On 7/24/2022 at 3:18 AM, ignatius said:

the thing about capitalism on a global scale is it's built on excluding entire populations from the system or exploiting them and their country's natural resources etc to make it work for the capitalist countries. that's what colonialism and slavery were all about right? i mean.. it's why the US knocked off all kinds of democratically elected leaders in central/south america/iran.. it's why corporations can sell products in other countries that are banned in western countries and on and on. 

thanks for explaining but i don't see how capitalism requires exploiting populations. bad things are done by people motivated by greed so we should not allow people to be motivated by profit? why not just police wrong-doing and allow people to be motivated by profit? 

  On 7/24/2022 at 3:18 AM, ignatius said:

did a whole bunch of people get lifted out of poverty thanks to capitalism? sure but at the expense of the world and poor people and people excluded from the system. i mean.. has the Congo recovered from Leopold yet?

the expense you blame on capitalism, i think we could get into how nothing has only one cause. i could blame my problems on prehistoric butterflies or something but maybe that's not a useful line of causation to focus on. i think there's a terminology problem in discussing this topic, so i will say that when i refer to the word i mean the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing people to own their businesses. i think that's the main idea. i genuinly don't see how it makes sense to blame the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing people to own businesses for whatever bad things humans have done, even if they were powerful corporate actors. problems of power do not mean we should eliminate the right to become powerful. communism just consolidates power to an extremely narrow subset.

  On 7/24/2022 at 3:18 AM, ignatius said:

and not from the democratically elected leader who was assassinated w/help of the CIA.. making way for a dictator who would 'play ball' w/western interests. 

again, i genuinely don't get blaming all kinds of things on the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing indiduals to own businesses. humans are dumb all over and it's hard to find things that aren't mistakes.

  On 7/24/2022 at 3:18 AM, ignatius said:

the history of it all is plain to see.

what i see is a trend of people blaming all kinds of things on a freedom that has brought us the prosperity of the modern world. longterm data pretty clearly places our time as better by most key metrics.

  On 7/24/2022 at 3:18 AM, ignatius said:

it's not necessary to suggest that there's probably some better way since it seems obvious to anyone with empathy and compassion that "hey, maybe there is another way?" but people who worship the idea of "the free market" (how free is it though really) just get evangelical about it and come up w/all kinds of justifications and shit. it's a waste of time.  

of course there are major problems in the world, i just don't think it makes sense to exclude capitalism from a society. i'm for more socialism but i just get bummed out when people think the enemy is the right to own a business. i think the terminology is vague. USA is socialist despite being capitalist. bangladesh has capitalism despite being socialist. am i for more socialism? yes. do i view capitalism itself as a problem? no. maybe in other people's minds they have their own definition of capitalism where it also means malicious greed or something. i am not pro malicious greed.

  On 7/24/2022 at 2:26 AM, ilqx hermolia xpli said:

this is capitalist dogma.  you think that about yourself?  you think that about me and everyone in this thread?  you think that about the typical person?  no, you're talking out your ass with your anti-human comments

Zeff, dude, let me ask a very basic question. why do you continue to come to post shit like this on watmm? you consistently look at most everyone here as an antagonistic force toward whatever you hope to achieve. you lost your audience on here a long, long time ago. you are no longer viewed as someone who knows his shit. you are viewed as a comic book character... ranting and raving about all the pros of Marxism, like some fucking Jim Henson muppet. 

if you ever thought of promoting your bullshit communism plan to anyone on here, in hopes you would convince anyone that this is somehow the way, then you have failed. if you want to try and listen to some shit people have to say on here, and appreciate the fact that we are all different, all have our own thoughts on how we can achieve some form of unity, then by all means, start interacting with respect. until then, you are not to be taken seriously, and are in fact hurting your cause.

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:12 AM, trying to be less rude said:

thanks for explaining but i don't see how capitalism requires exploiting populations. bad things are done by people motivated by greed so we should not allow people to be motivated by profit? why not just police wrong-doing and allow people to be motivated by profit? 

the expense you blame on capitalism, i think we could get into how nothing has only one cause. i could blame my problems on prehistoric butterflies or something but maybe that's not a useful line of causation to focus on. i think there's a terminology problem in discussing this topic, so i will say that when i refer to the word i mean the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing people to own their businesses. i think that's the main idea. i genuinly don't see how it makes sense to blame the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing people to own businesses for whatever bad things humans have done, even if they were powerful corporate actors. problems of power do not mean we should eliminate the right to become powerful. communism just consolidates power to an extremely narrow subset.

again, i genuinely don't get blaming all kinds of things on the idea of facilitating productivity by allowing indiduals to own businesses. humans are dumb all over and it's hard to find things that aren't mistakes.

what i see is a trend of people blaming all kinds of things on a freedom that has brought us the prosperity of the modern world. longterm data pretty clearly places our time as better by most key metrics.

of course there are major problems in the world, i just don't think it makes sense to exclude capitalism from a society. i'm for more socialism but i just get bummed out when people think the enemy is the right to own a business. i think the terminology is vague. USA is socialist despite being capitalist. bangladesh has capitalism despite being socialist. am i for more socialism? yes. do i view capitalism itself as a problem? no. maybe in other people's minds they have their own definition of capitalism where it also means malicious greed or something. i am not pro malicious greed.

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we're going to have markets. .there's always been markets.. they're often really effective and efficient when they happen sort of organically.. for lack of a better word.. they fill a need and it's a thing you see that some regimes like north korea allow to exist because they're much more effect than what the government can or is willing to do to for example, feed its people. 

that's not the point i'm trying to make. i'm not saying exclude all forms of capitalism.  what i am saying is that in its current form it's not going to work for much longer.  so, you may say that "our time is best time in the history of time" or whatever.. but get back to be in 10 or 50 years and see how you feel about that. we can see how that sentiment ages. 

from my american point of view, taking into account slavery, colonialism and its effects on the world.. .. i just don't think it's possible to split hairs about it. trying to remove "malicious greed" from wall street or standard operating procedures of multi national corporations is about the most naive and pie in the sky type thing a person can imagine. you might as well imagine god as a giant magic taco that shits ice cream. 

there's nothing wrong with owning a business and making a buck. owning a business that relies on chopping off the limbs of children and native people as a punishment for not harvesting enough rubber from the rubber trees is a problem. 

it's not possible to escape blame for these things. it's not possible to ignore extracting resources at the barrel of a gun so those resrouces can be made into batteries or solder for PCBs etc. 

so far.. on a large scale.. beyond basics of markets formed with some kind mutual aid in mind..  i don't think we've see a "benign" form of capitalism.. only the malignant kind. 

sure, nothing has only one cause but there's often a driving force or ideology.. whether it's white supremacy -> colonialism or something else... so, trying to escape the horrors of how we got to where we are isn't at all possible and in america it's why schools can't teach actual history and instead they tell kids in texas that slaves were happy and had BBQs every day after being int he fields and there was music and dancing. 

i mean.. look at India.. the famine in Bengal that killed like 10 million people. the famine was created by the brits so they could make more money. they didn't allow the farmers to keep some of their own food even when they were starving.. adn this after the brits imposed their way of farming onto a land/culture that had been doing fine for fucking ever. 

the same thing happened to ireland w/what is commonly called the potato famine. 

none of this stuff is new. if you want to study history and how these things came to be and who the people were and what their motivations were etc then you need to go dig in. 

i don't have all the answers or any really. reading, interviews, podcasts etc.. patterns emerge through the history. it's easier to do the math on capitalism and its effects when you see what happened outside the USA or UK or Eu etc. . USA hegemony in the region has been devastating for south and central america for a hundred+ years. same can said for other other hegemonies effects on other parts of the world. 

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

i'm not saying exclude all forms of capitalism.

ok so i think we agree on what my point was, here.

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

but get back to be in 10 or 50 years and see how you feel about that. we can see how that sentiment ages. 

believe me i know. oil power is the single biggest problem this planet has, and i just hope they don't break the planet too bad

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

from my american point of view, taking into account slavery, colonialism and its effects on the world.. .. i just don't think it's possible to split hairs about it. trying to remove "malicious greed" from wall street or standard operating procedures of multi national corporations is about the most naive and pie in the sky type thing a person can imagine. you might as well imagine god as a giant magic taco that shits ice cream. 

ok so right here you admit that you are unwilling to differentiate within something as broad as... american history going back hundreds of years? not willing to break that down at all? it's just all one thing? capitalism? you point to bad actors but ignore good actors. are there no good businesses or corporations? it's possible to split hairs. you can have the right and you can have people who misuse the right. that doesn't mean there's a flaw with the right. these are hairs worth splitting because frankly you seem to be conflating distinct entities. malicious greed is not a result of capitalism, it existed before it. crimes happening in a capitalist society does not mean capitalism is fundamentally flawed. you agree with me on that. the crimes happening are not necessarily part of capitalism. it's inaccurate to define capitalism by things that it does not require. wall street is not capitalism, it is wall street. the problems of wall street are not capitalism. capitalism is a right to own a business.

another usage of the word is also for describing societies as more or less capitalistic, meaning relying on market corrections more or less than government planning. i'm a big lib who loves regulation, i'm not defending free market capitalism like what paul ryan and the tea baggers pushed. 

here's the trap: the more the left thinks they hate capitalism, the more a lot of voters are going to vote red because of it. i find it interesting that all of a sudden everyone was pushing this narrative on the internet................

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

there's nothing wrong with owning a business and making a buck. owning a business that relies on chopping off the limbs of children and native people as a punishment for not harvesting enough rubber from the rubber trees is a problem. 

i mean yeah. when i look at the problem of people cutting people's hands off, my mind does not go to "capitalism"

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

so far.. on a large scale.. beyond basics of markets formed with some kind mutual aid in mind..  i don't think we've see a "benign" form of capitalism.. only the malignant kind. 

i mean i think it's cool that bill gates uses his money to try to rid the world of malaria and stuff like that. there are good aspects. tons of things invented, etc. why ascribe bad things to capitalism but not good?

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

i mean.. look at India.. the famine in Bengal that killed like 10 million people. the famine was created by the brits so they could make more money. they didn't allow the farmers to keep some of their own food even when they were starving.. adn this after the brits imposed their way of farming onto a land/culture that had been doing fine for fucking ever. 

we agree that eliminating the freedom to own a business is not the solution. human nature is fucked up and it was so before free societies and before the concept of capitalism. i'm still feeling the twinge that you're pointing at [everything] and calling it "capitalism." 

  On 7/24/2022 at 4:38 AM, ignatius said:

the same thing happened to ireland w/what is commonly called the potato famine. 

none of this stuff is new. if you want to study history and how these things came to be and who the people were and what their motivations were etc then you need to go dig in. 

i don't have all the answers or any really. reading, interviews, podcasts etc.. patterns emerge through the history. it's easier to do the math on capitalism and its effects when you see what happened outside the USA or UK or Eu etc. . USA hegemony in the region has been devastating for south and central america for a hundred+ years. same can said for other other hegemonies effects on other parts of the world. 

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i appreciate you explaining your thoughts. i agree that the greed and immorality of human nature is fucked up. i think we agree that the freedom to own a business is not a flawed idea and that it can work and that we should keep this freedom. that was my main point. 

i won't act like i can fully fathom the wrongness of many acts from history. we're an ugly species. each individual is a mixed bag, some are pretty good, some are quite rotten. i just don't view a solution being doing away with capitalism. and i find it weird that all of a sudden everybody is talking about it. strikes me as some kind of a narrative thing. and it's definitely serving the GOP.