Boc Old Tunes 1 + 2 / Boc Maxima / orig Twosim etc

  On 6/3/2013 at 3:26 AM, LimpyLoo said:

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

3) Quick copyright 101: you retain an informal copyright the moment you create something. It does not matter if those works are released for sale or exhibition or not, no one but the copyright holder has the right to the works.

 

 

Your view of copyright would preclude anyone from selling anything ever. It makes no sense, Joyrex. There is no violation of copyright in simply selling a tape with copyrighted material on it.

 

At heart copyright pertains to the "right to copy" and it does not apply to this sort of thing.

The media has nothing to do with the copyright on the work contained within, and that's the point.

Let's talk when you've taken a copyright law course as part of your degree. And yes, I've taken copyright law classes as part of my professional degree.

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think Boards should quickly announce digital versions, sourced and mastered from the originals, of select tracks from these compilations for sale soon - thus taking the wind out of the opportunists' sails and end this farce.

about the only part of your list that I agree with. If a band with this big of a fan base has been sitting on material for this long that fans have eagerly wanted, It makes no sense whatsoever to me to keep them under wraps. IT seems to me that it's out of sheer laziness and nothing else. And good point about the BOC boys having the potential to sell these but choosing not to, well I don't mean this in any dickish way, but honestly their loss. It would be like if someone ripped soundboards of Quaristice and Oversteps live tours and Autechre complained later that they won't bother releasing the 'better' versions now that some a-hole fan ripped them. I just personally believe that when you are a band of BOC's stature you do OWE something to the fans. May seem entitled, but I truly believe it. I just can't imagine being in a similar position and letting people sell tapes for $1,000 on ebay with material that my fans have been dying to hear for years. It's sort of baffling. However some bands, and it seems like BOC fits this paradigm like to keep the mystery going. 'old' or 'demo' music to a lot of artists is just simply embarrassing to the legacy they feel the have established over a decade or more. On one hand I can understand this, but I don't agree with it.

edit: in regards to copyright, if someone sells the tape I don't believe that it falls into any legal definition of copyright violation. Ethically speaking it's a grey area and I think you will find many on both sides of the argument. If someone ripped these and distributed them online it would be copyright infringement as well and might hinder or potentially stop BOC from releasing these themselves in a proper good quality form. So since these tapes are already out there and it's been a very long time since they were given out, it seems highly likely that at some point someone will rip them in higher quality than they have already existed.

Paradise Lost was an easier read.

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

I'm not going to even attempt to reply to some of the ill-informed, idiotic, and just plain WRONG statements and assumptions in this epic clusterfuck of a thread, so here it is in simple, easy to read form:

 

1) While it is technically not illegal to sell the tapes, the ethics of doing so, and moreso the timing, is what's at issue here.

 

2) These tapes (and the unreleased music contained within) were never meant to change hands or become public - by breaking that trust and selling them, there is the almost-certain potential that whomever ends up with these will capitalize on the fact these are first-generation tapes and will certainly rip these and distribute them online, thus depriving Boards of any potential sales or control how their art is presented. This is why Boards has in past fought the sale of these tapes, over and above any emotional investment they had in the people they entrusted their unreleased material with.

 

If someone tries to distribute higher-quality rips BoC can take legal action because then and only then has copyright been infringed. In fact since we are so concerned about BoC's rights regarding copyright we should, all of us, delete Old Tunes from our hard drives since it is fruit from the poisonous tree of copyright infringement.

 

3) Quick copyright 101: you retain an informal copyright the moment you create something. It does not matter if those works are released for sale or exhibition or not, no one but the copyright holder has the right to the works.

 

4) Because of who is selling these items, it sets a precedent for not only others to follow suit. What incentive does Boards have to release these tracks now that poor quality copies are all over online, and not almost certainly higher quality ones will surface?

 

Again, this pertains to the distinction I made regarding copyright. The selling of the original tape and the distribution of the music are two separate issues. The obvious difference is that the latter is a copyright infringement and the former isn't.

 

It's legal to buy and sell a Picasso but it's not legal to make unauthorized duplications of it. In this sense copyright is quite plain.

 

5) I think Boards should quickly announce digital versions, sourced and mastered from the originals, of select tracks from these compilations for sale soon - thus taking the wind out of the opportunists' sails and end this farce. Then, the fans get what they want, Boards gets compensation for their hard work and art, and any future individuals considering this won't bother. Think I'm wrong? What about Twoism? They finally officially released it so everyone could afford to own it, and as Boards intended it to be presented. Now, any copies of the original are valuable only to collectors who want the original and aren't bothering with ripping it illegally.

 

Once again I think you're conflating the sale of the original tape and duplication of the material. They are linked only in that duplication logically requires possession of the tape in the first place. But once you untangle the two in regards to copyright then things take on a much different light IMO.

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

I'm not going to even attempt to reply to some of the ill-informed, idiotic, and just plain WRONG statements and assumptions in this epic clusterfuck of a thread, so here it is in simple, easy to read form:

 

1) While it is technically not illegal to sell the tapes, the ethics of doing so, and moreso the timing, is what's at issue here.

 

2) These tapes (and the unreleased music contained within) were never meant to change hands or become public - by breaking that trust and selling them, there is the almost-certain potential that whomever ends up with these will capitalize on the fact these are first-generation tapes and will certainly rip these and distribute them online, thus depriving Boards of any potential sales or control how their art is presented. This is why Boards has in past fought the sale of these tapes, over and above any emotional investment they had in the people they entrusted their unreleased material with.

 

3) Quick copyright 101: you retain an informal copyright the moment you create something. It does not matter if those works are released for sale or exhibition or not, no one but the copyright holder has the right to the works.

 

4) Because of who is selling these items, it sets a precedent for not only others to follow suit. What incentive does Boards have to release these tracks now that poor quality copies are all over online, and not almost certainly higher quality ones will surface?

 

5) I think Boards should quickly announce digital versions, sourced and mastered from the originals, of select tracks from these compilations for sale soon - thus taking the wind out of the opportunists' sails and end this farce. Then, the fans get what they want, Boards gets compensation for their hard work and art, and any future individuals considering this won't bother. Think I'm wrong? What about Twoism? They finally officially released it so everyone could afford to own it, and as Boards intended it to be presented. Now, any copies of the original are valuable only to collectors who want the original and aren't bothering with ripping it illegally.

You make some questionable assumptions. First, that trading these tapes would deter BOC from releasing this material in the future. Every lunatic on this forum (myself included) and over at twogasm.com would preorder of collection older material the instant it was announced. The past month in this sub forum proves that. And if that happened, guess what - these tapes would be just as valuable.

Also, nobody questions that BOC own a copyright to the music on the tapes. Selling these tapes does not infringe that copyright. Ripping the tracks and leaking them does.

One way to prevent that from happening is to ask everyone that you ever sent a demo to to do the "right" thing and keep them private. That's the strategy BOC have employed thus far and it's impractical and foolish. A more sensible thing to do is to simply release the material. If you release it, you make money for your work, fans get what they want, and people like sellers in this auction get to do what they're legally entitled to do without being harassed by obsessed superfans on a message board.

  On 6/3/2013 at 4:04 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

 

  Quote

 

 

think Boards should quickly announce digital versions, sourced and mastered from the originals, of select tracks from these compilations for sale soon - thus taking the wind out of the opportunists' sails and end this farce.

about the only part of your list that I agree with. If a band with this big of a fan base has been sitting on material for this long that fans have eagerly wanted, It makes no sense whatsoever to me to keep them under wraps. IT seems to me that it's out of sheer laziness and nothing else. And good point about the BOC boys having the potential to sell these but choosing not to, well I don't mean this in any dickish way, but honestly their loss. It would be like if someone ripped soundboards of Quaristice and Oversteps live tours and Autechre complained later that they won't bother releasing the 'better' versions now that some a-hole fan ripped them. I just personally believe that when you are a band of BOC's stature you do OWE something to the fans. May seem entitled, but I truly believe it. I just can't imagine being in a similar position and letting people sell tapes for $1,000 on ebay with material that my fans have been dying to hear for years. It's sort of baffling. However some bands, and it seems like BOC fits this paradigm like to keep the mystery going. 'old' or 'demo' music to a lot of artists is just simply embarrassing to the legacy they feel the have established over a decade or more. On one hand I can understand this, but I don't agree with it.

 

edit: in regards to copyright, if someone sells the tape I don't believe that it falls into any legal definition of copyright violation. Ethically speaking it's a grey area and I think you will find many on both sides of the argument. If someone ripped these and distributed them online it would be copyright infringement as well and might hinder or potentially stop BOC from releasing these themselves in a proper good quality form. So since these tapes are already out there and it's been a very long time since they were given out, it seems highly likely that at some point someone will rip them in higher quality than they have already existed.

 

Well, I bet it feels damn good to have people fighting over your creation and be willing to pay big bucks for it.

  On 6/3/2013 at 4:03 AM, Joyrex said:

 

  On 6/3/2013 at 3:26 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

3) Quick copyright 101: you retain an informal copyright the moment you create something. It does not matter if those works are released for sale or exhibition or not, no one but the copyright holder has the right to the works.

 

Your view of copyright would preclude anyone from selling anything ever. It makes no sense, Joyrex. There is no violation of copyright in simply selling a tape with copyrighted material on it.

 

At heart copyright pertains to the "right to copy" and it does not apply to this sort of thing.

The media has nothing to do with the copyright on the work contained within, and that's the point.

 

Let's talk when you've taken a copyright law course as part of your degree. And yes, I've taken copyright law classes as part of my professional degree.

I've taken commercial law and I can tell you you're not 100% on the money joyboss. I won't argue with anyone but I can say there's nothing legally wrong with selling this item. I can't see anything ethically wrong either as its giving another fan a chance to enjoy this item.

Also I'm surprised you didn't answer my pm. I wasn't intending it to be flammatory I just wanted your take on it...

  On 6/3/2013 at 4:03 AM, Joyrex said:

 

  On 6/3/2013 at 3:26 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

3) Quick copyright 101: you retain an informal copyright the moment you create something. It does not matter if those works are released for sale or exhibition or not, no one but the copyright holder has the right to the works.

 

Your view of copyright would preclude anyone from selling anything ever. It makes no sense, Joyrex. There is no violation of copyright in simply selling a tape with copyrighted material on it.

 

At heart copyright pertains to the "right to copy" and it does not apply to this sort of thing.

 

The media has nothing to do with the copyright on the work contained within, and that's the point.

 

Let's talk when you've taken a copyright law course as part of your degree. And yes, I've taken copyright law classes as part of my professional degree.

 

Show/tell me what aspect of copyright law this violates. Tell me how this is different than me selling just a random Hoobastank cd or tape or whatever.

Lol, now that the copyright laws supposedly withhold people from selling "their" stuff, we can close all the museums as well. All these copyright violations....

And BOC needing incentives to release music? What kinds of ridiculousness is that? So they haven't released an album for 8 years because of incentives?

Something doesnt seem right here.... Hmmmmm

"Now that the show is over, and we have jointly exercised our constitutional rights, we would like to leave you with one very important thought: Some time in the future, you may have the opportunity to serve as a juror in a censorship case or a so-called obscenity case. It would be wise to remember that the same people who would stop you from listening to Boards of Canada may be back next year to complain about a book, or even a TV program. If you can be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you can be told what to say or think. Defend your constitutionally protected rights - no one else will do it for you. Thank you.

Looking through Japanese Newsgroups, this auction is now being talked about.

Expect some serious bids to come in closer to the end date.

I know of one guy in Tokyo who will probably offer in excess of four thousand dollars for both tapes. He really wants them - irony is he doesn't even have a tape deck. I imagine he wants them for other reasons, maybe unrelated to the music itself.

  On 6/3/2013 at 6:15 AM, fumi said:

Looking through Japanese Newsgroups, this auction is now being talked about.

Expect some serious bids to come in closer to the end date.

I know of one guy in Tokyo who will probably offer in excess of four thousand dollars for both tapes. He really wants them - irony is he doesn't even have a tape deck. I imagine he wants them for other reasons, maybe unrelated to the music itself.

Lol @ "I know of one guy in Tokyo who will probably offer in excess of four thousand dollars for both tapes." Que picture of excentric Japanese millionaire wearing sunglasses leaning against a BMW parked under a cherry blossom tree"

That is the stupidest cliche hollywood interpretation shit I have ever read in a forum in my life, I'd expect more from someone who has even a small ounce of respect for Japanese culture.

wtf are you making shit up for. post this discussion or it didn't happen, you're not the only one who can read a second language.

  On 6/3/2013 at 6:56 AM, HateMaker said:

 

  On 6/3/2013 at 6:15 AM, fumi said:

Looking through Japanese Newsgroups, this auction is now being talked about.

Expect some serious bids to come in closer to the end date.

I know of one guy in Tokyo who will probably offer in excess of four thousand dollars for both tapes. He really wants them - irony is he doesn't even have a tape deck. I imagine he wants them for other reasons, maybe unrelated to the music itself.

 

Lol @ "I know of one guy in Tokyo who will probably offer in excess of four thousand dollars for both tapes." Que picture of excentric Japanese millionaire wearing sunglasses leaning against a BMW parked under a cherry blossom tree"

 

That is the stupidest cliche hollywood interpretation shit I have ever read in a forum in my life, I'd expect more from someone who has even a small ounce of respect for Japanese culture.

 

 

wtf are you making shit up for. post this discussion or it didn't happen, you're not the only one who can read a second language.

 

chill man =)

Fumis chill..

Lol okay Stephen you're right. I get all bitchy when I read shit about Japan. I'm the only one who's allowed to write stuff about Japan ok!!?

I think that if Fumis really honest with himself and everyone else he'll just admit that he was embellishing a bit...

  On 6/3/2013 at 7:05 AM, HateMaker said:

Lol okay Stephen you're right. I get all bitchy when I read shit about Japan. I'm the only one who's allowed to write stuff about Japan ok!!?

Ok man as long you're chillll.. And respect that Fumi's chill ok? =) write what your soul says to write lol

I forgot to write that yes, I believe Fumi's embellishing for the right of conversation. Release his mind!

nice work at being nice stephen. Nod of approval at your behaviour. ;-]

...the record-crate subforum, who would have known...

i know right.

  On 6/3/2013 at 2:56 AM, Joyrex said:

2) These tapes (and the unreleased music contained within) were never meant to change hands or become public - by breaking that trust and selling them, there is the almost-certain potential that whomever ends up with these will capitalize on the fact these are first-generation tapes and will certainly rip these and distribute them online, thus depriving Boards of any potential sales or control how their art is presented. This is why Boards has in past fought the sale of these tapes, over and above any emotional investment they had in the people they entrusted their unreleased material with.

 

4) Because of who is selling these items, it sets a precedent for not only others to follow suit. What incentive does Boards have to release these tracks now that poor quality copies are all over online, and not almost certainly higher quality ones will surface?

 

5) I think Boards should quickly announce digital versions, sourced and mastered from the originals, of select tracks from these compilations for sale soon - thus taking the wind out of the opportunists' sails and end this farce. Then, the fans get what they want, Boards gets compensation for their hard work and art, and any future individuals considering this won't bother. Think I'm wrong? What about Twoism? They finally officially released it so everyone could afford to own it, and as Boards intended it to be presented. Now, any copies of the original are valuable only to collectors who want the original and aren't bothering with ripping it illegally.

We've heard it all before, save your money because the BOCset is coming soon after the album etc., that was eight years ago with TCH and the Prince Murat auction. People have listened to these tracks for years and they will still buy them when they (or a selection of them) are officially released. Even a hypothetical better quality rip won't change that.

All that's going to happen if the auctions go through is that one single copy of each will change hands from one person to another. I'm not one to pay a fortune for a rarity but if someone wants to, why not? It's not as if someone is selling counterfeits of an upcoming release, or even promos, these are the genuine article, there is no corresponding 'official' release. Besides, I don't think all the mythology and high asking prices for first presses of Twoism hurt the sales of the reissue, probably the contrary if anything. Selling it while it is still rare is the seller's prerogative and it's hard to see how that is hurting BOC's sales in any way.

The way some people are reacting here is almost like these tapes are currently being auctioned off at thepiratebay or something, and that they're most certainly going to go into the hands of some pirate. Not only that but the sellers will be liable when whoever buys them will inevitably put up illegal copies for everyone to download. That's a lot of assumptions and is quite ridiculous to find the Paradinas' at fault for something that at this time is a hypothetical. If it does happen, will you point back to this transaction and say, all high and mighty, "I told you so!" and crucify the Paradinas' while simultaneously letting whoever acquired them and actually does the ripping get off scott free? I just fail to understand that. If that happened, it would be 100% the fault of whoever ripped and distributed it, and NOT of someone who sold it to them.

Maybe Alzado's post a few pages back got overlooked in regards to The Beatles demo tape that went up for sale. Its the EXACT SAME SITUATION (with the exception of it being a much more popular band). Heres some excerpts:

  Quote

The Beatles demo tape...has resurfaced and is up for auction...

...Bootleg copies exist but few have heard the original "pristine" master tape.

...It does not, however, come with the rights to the tracks.

...Apple, the company set up by The Beatles, holds the copyright to their voices and if anyone tried to release the material without their permission they would certainly be sued,

Again, the exact same situation. So there is nothing wrong with simply selling some demo tapes. These BOC auctions aren't for the rights to the tracks, its simply for these specific copies of the demo tapes. Now if you want to argue if it is morally right to sell off a gift from someone, that is another discussion, but this post is already getting too long. ;) I'll just say that while no one here seems to know whether the Sandison's have given their blessing for these to go up on auction, a few here are acting like they KNOW that BOC and Warp are against these being sold but are powerless and need the internets help to defend them. Its sad really to see people reacting in this way when we all have no idea. It's not your fight. If you really feel so upset then why not contact Warp so they're aware of it and then let it work itself out amongst the actual parties involved? For the rest of us, its really none of our fuckin' business.

  On 6/3/2013 at 6:56 AM, HateMaker said:

wtf are you making shit up for. post this discussion or it didn't happen, you're not the only one who can read a second language.

ah they're just trying to boost up an old 'friend'. i'm sure he cares about you all.

maybe he'll return the favour and release a compilation of all your work. wishful thinking.

which one is mu? is it worth fucking now or shall i wait till the last day of auction?

I seriously think watmm should pool its resources and buy these cassettes. I am not interested in owning the tapes physically, but am interested enough in securing a high quality rips that I would gladly contribute several hundred dollars to the initiative. If anyone is seriously interested please pm me.

thread trajectory: op, rolling lulz, Alzado weighs in, thread goes downhill faster than a little kid inside a tyre

the tyre always ends up falling on it's side a couple of metres into it's downward trajectory when i try that.

so have you guys actually heard these tunes then. what if they're a bit shit.