Yasiin Bey (aka Mos Def) force-fed under standard Guantánamo Bay procedure – Video

it is quite effective actually, at least i can remember a few instances of israeli ops that ended up killing a lot of civilians which in turn brought more international pressure for cease fire, in 2006 lebanon war for example.

 

but regarding the issue at hand, you just don't seem to understand that you don't have enough information about how u.s employs torture and whether its ways are effective. it's really similar to the stuxnet argument in the other thread - i really don't get how do you people™ attain the such extreme confidence and the pretense of knowing enough facts talking about practices that by design are extremely secretive. of course citizens not knowing enough about such is an issue in itself in a society that calls itself democratic, but that's a different topic.

Uh huh. Next time maybe you can quantify what "enough information" is so that I know when I'm allowed to speak about a subject. By your standards of course. I'm sure you'd be mortified to know that most people IRL talk about things they haven't read 100+ scientific papers about, or even more shocking, that bounded rationality prevents people from having the same information and drawing the same conclusions anyway, so sharing our bounded opinions is the way most of us try to inform one another. Oh, the humanity.

Edited July 11, 2013 by luke viia

It sure would be nice if everybody would realize the uncertainty factor in discussions like this. No need to get all offended, man.

 

On the other hand, it's sometimes nice rhetoric in moral debates to deliberately extrapolate things to the extreme.

Edited July 11, 2013 by th555

  On 7/11/2013 at 5:11 PM, luke viia said:

Uh huh. Next time maybe you can quantify what "enough information" is so that I know when I'm allowed to speak about a subject. By your standards of course. I'm sure you'd be mortified to know that most people IRL talk about things they haven't read 100+ scientific papers about, or even more shocking, that bounded rationality prevents people from having the same information and drawing the same conclusions anyway, so sharing our bounded opinions is the way most of us try to inform one another. Oh, the humanity.

jesus dude, you're allowed to speak about whatever you want, just don't tag it with "scientific fact" without really good reasons while knowing the weight and authority such term carries. the fact that you mention the term "bounded rationality" indicates that you're aware of it but for some reason don't include it in your argumentation. Edited July 11, 2013 by eugene

Nicolas Cage jumps on the bandwagon -

 

Eh, I'm not really offended, and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be: yes, there is uncertainty in everything, and also in this context (duh). Yes, the research is limited (no doy). Yes eugene, I already conceded that Joshua Phillips' phrasing of "scientific fact" is something I can't defend here (maybe you missed that post?).

 

My motherloving point is only this: interrogative torture is not proven to be effective, and in fact some studies suggest its costs far outweigh its benefits. That's it. If that's still not getting through to anyone, I guess I'm SOL.

The Media worldwide is watching, and that is partly because of the video:

 

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2013/07/senators-ask-obama-to-rein-in-guantanamo-forcefeeding-168004.html

 

So, no words from the President yet, in three days?

  On 7/11/2013 at 5:54 PM, CJM said:

 

So, no words from the President yet, in three days?

 

 

  Quote

As President, I will close Guantanamo, reject the Military Commissions Act and adhere to the Geneva Conventions. Our Constitution and our Uniform Code of Military Justice provide a framework for dealing with the terrorists.

source?

http://humanrights.ucdavis.edu/projects/the-guantanamo-testimonials-project/testimonies/testimonies-of-prosecution-lawyers/former-guantanamo-chief-prosecutor-a-pair-of-testicles-fell-off-the-president-after-election-day

 

fifth paragraph. that quote is from 2007

lol

  On 7/11/2013 at 5:53 PM, luke viia said:

Eh, I'm not really offended, and I'm not sure how much clearer I can be: yes, there is uncertainty in everything, and also in this context (duh). Yes, the research is limited (no doy). Yes eugene, I already conceded that Joshua Phillips' phrasing of "scientific fact" is something I can't defend here (maybe you missed that post?).

 

My motherloving point is only this: interrogative torture is not proven to be effective, and in fact some studies suggest its costs far outweigh its benefits. That's it. If that's still not getting through to anyone, I guess I'm SOL.

well im happy that you agree about the "scientific fact" issue but the way you word the other point is misleading. i think it would be more fair to conclude like that: there is data that point to its lack of efficacy and there's data that point to some efficacy, with that said there's is really not enough research for proper conclusion regarding its efficacy. so with that in mind i agree that it does make sense not to use something that's not proven, but on the other hand we're also lacking particular info about how exactly torture is used in the u.s. military currently, in what circumstances and whether such usage is effective or not.

i would love to see both kanye and jay z force fed like that- and when they ask to stop, they should be reminded they're yeezus and jay-hova and the force-fedding continues

Leigh Gilmore wrote a really good article on the implications of legitimizing torture called "how we confess now". I don't have it on my phone but if someone wants to search and link it... Or I'll try and upload it later today.

  On 7/11/2013 at 6:40 PM, Nebraska said:

i would love to see both kanye and jay z force fed like that- and when they ask to stop, they should be reminded they're yeezus and jay-hova and the force-fedding continues

Lol. Same goes for the girl in your avatar.

 

@chen: is it about how torture leads to false confessions?

Edited July 11, 2013 by th555

  On 7/11/2013 at 6:25 PM, eugene said:

we're also lacking particular info about how exactly torture is used in the u.s. military currently

 

Recent evidence of how torture is used - illegally - by the US military:

 

- Photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

- Soldier Testimonies:

 

  Quote

 

Among those testifying at the hearing was Cpl. Jason Washburn, a former Marine who served three tours in Iraq. Washburn served in some of the most dangerous parts of the country, including Najaf and Iraq's Western Anbar Province. A squad in his unit was responsible for the massacre of 26 civilians in Haditha in November 2005.

Washburn told the gathering his commanders encouraged lawless behavior.

"We were encouraged to bring 'drop weapons' or shovels, in case we accidentally shot a civilian, we could drop the weapon on the body and pretend they were an insurgent," he said.

"By the third tour, if they were carrying a shovel or bag, we could shoot them. So we carried these tools and weapons in our vehicles, so we could toss them on civilians when we shot them. This was commonly encouraged."

Another former Marine, John Michael Turner, tore off the medals he earned during two tours in Iraq and threw them on the ground.

"Apr. 18, 2006 was the date of my first confirmed kill," he told the crowd other veterans. "He was innocent, I called him the fat man. He was walking back to his house and I killed him in front of his father and friend. My first shot made him scream and look into my eyes, so I looked at my friend and said, 'Well, I can't let that happen,' and shot him again. After my first kill I was congratulated."

 

from: https://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/03/19/7763

 

- Detainee Testimonies

 

  Quote

 

 

1. Iraqi soldiers arrested Detainee E, a 21-year-old, on December 19 at his home in Mosul: "During the first eight days they tortured me daily. They would put a bag on my head and start to kick my stomach and beat me all over my body. They threatened that if I didn't confess, they would bring my sisters and mother to be raped. I heard him on the cellphone giving orders to rape my sisters and mother." During one torture session, the man, who was blindfolded and handcuffed, was stripped and ordered to stroke another detainee's penis. After he was forced to the floor, the other detainee was forced on top of him. "It hurt when it started to penetrate me. The guards were all laughing and saying, ‘He's very tight, let's bring some soap!' When I experienced the pain, I asked them to stop and that I would confess. Although I confessed to the killings, I mentioned fake names since I never killed anyone. So the torture continued even after I confessed because they suspected my confession was false." One of the guards also forced him to have oral sex.
2. Detainees G and H, father (59) and son (29) respectively, were arrested at their house in Mosul on September 30. Both endured sessions in which interrogators hung them upside down and beat them. During one session the father was stripped naked in front of the son, and the son was told they if he did not confess they would rape his father. The father was told that if he did not confess they would kill his son. The son was subsequently sodomized with a broomstick and the guards' fingers.

 

Plenty more confessions here at Human Rights Watch: http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/04/27/iraq-detainees-describe-torture-secret-jail

 

 

- US Govt Documents discussing the torture programs: http://www.aclu.org/accountability/released.html

 

 

(not a comprehensive list, just the parts we've covered ITT).

 

Not sure what else you'd like to see regarding how interrogation is conducted in the US. Are you waiting for the secret operations plans you say we can't know about? Maybe describe the kind of evidence you want and we can try to hunt it down? Seems more sensible than just declaring that the evidence doesn't exist, as you did with the false claim that "no literature exists on the efficacy of torture." I dunno. I just hope I don't turn into compson with all this linking if I keep posting in here.

Edited July 11, 2013 by luke viia

  On 7/11/2013 at 7:19 PM, luke viia said:

 

 

Just look at him standing there, jesus christ.

Must not be a pleasant work environment, if it makes people do shit like that.

 

edit: did somebody shoop his upper body smaller?

Edited July 11, 2013 by th555

err, that's Lynndie England. Maybe you've heard of her.

what i want is some kind of a methodical research/documentation that shows that "we did this in that, and we got this and that" and the discussion of how useful is what they got. you're just slipping with all those photos and stuff, there's really little in common with that and interrogative torture that we're talking about, it's just abuse and humiliation for the kicks.

when i said "no literature exist" i meant that no literature exist that really answers that big question of efficacy conclusively, it's obvious that you'll find a ton of anecdotes and testimonies and stuff, i just had higher standards in mind.

Edited July 11, 2013 by eugene

Of course it's something totally different. Documentation would be nice, maybe you could find something in the WW2 or cold war archives?

  On 7/11/2013 at 7:46 PM, th555 said:

Of course it's something totally different. Documentation would be nice, maybe you could find something in the WW2 or cold war archives?

 

 

This is the problem. I certainly understand Eugene's want for a "higher standard of evidence", ie. more of it, classified documents rather than witness testimony, etc. But this is almost nigh impossible to recreate a complete and accurate account as it is playing out. All the classified documents that might reveal the pertinent information are, infact, classified. Add to the fact that there might just be people with access to this information that would benefit from not having it released.

 

To me, skepticism is safer than acceptance, merely due to past historical analyses regarding similar problems or occurrences. I spose to be direct on this torture question, I would simply say that I cannot claim to know whether torture is more effective than ineffective and vice versa. But I do oppose torture on moral grounds.

if only there were people out there making classified documents available so that we could become more informed about this

  On 7/11/2013 at 7:59 PM, Alcofribas said:

if only there were people out there making classified documents available so that we could become more informed about this

If only they didn't risk the rest of their lives as they would in a non-free society.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2013 by th555

We can't have systemic scientific analysis of whether torture works, eugene you have said as much previously in this thread. Modeling the behavior, as the ScienceDaily link's study did, is as close as we can get to an answer right now, legally. The torture the US is conducting atm is illegal, how the fuck are they going to get in there and scientifically analyze the causal chain of failed interrogations? I am voicing the concern that these practices need to stop, and keep being met with "well we don't know if needs to be stopped yet" type arguments. wtf is wrong with people? Raping innocent civilians and forcing them to admit to crimes they didn't commit should continue because we don't know conclusively whether it actually works occasionally, but we do know it fails to get valuable information routinely? Really?

 

Edited July 11, 2013 by luke viia

that's because you're looking at from a purely ethical position, but the fact is that enemy's people's lives are much less valuable than americans', it's the concept the whole military stands on. from this pov sacrificing innocents to save americans is justifiable.