do you think Roland

  Analogue Wings said:

  mosca said:

100% straight from the horses mouth absolutely not

 

why would they?

 

*cough*

 

*fender, gibson, gretsch, electro harmonix, marshall*

 

*cough*

 

Clearly, the living-in-the-past and living-off-endless-variations-of-one-product business models work for a great many musical intrument companies, so Yekker's question isn't exactly stupid.

aye, but the difference is all of those brands produce products for the rock'n'roll mass market = worthwhile profitable product development, attractive to 75% of the entire musician customer base.

303s are not wanted and not desirable to all but a tiny clique of the musician market. you all seem to have an overblown overestimation of the number of folk who actually give a fuck.

seriously, trust me when i say that Roland have already done the market research, and bar some weirdos like us who lurk on darkened internet forums, the average joe musician would rather buy one of their silly repackaged modern Juno synth keyboards than some remake of an early 80s bassline generator. Simple fact.

so yes - it is a stupid thread.

If roland were ever thinking of reintroducing the 303 it would have done so already.

if they can't get the components to make them these days because they're not made anymore by anyone then if they released one it would just be an emulation, why bother with this? it will not sound exactly the same, and it's not like there is any shortage of 303 emulations today, you can download countless software emulations.

i never got what the fuck is so special about the 303, or the 909 for that matter, i am fond of the 808 but again, the sounds are fucking everywhere, and if you're so hellbent on authenticity you can still buy a used original one (assuming you want to drop that kind of money on authenticity).

i just don't get why people can be so anti-using any kind of preset, or be against using the amen break or tons of other shit then go ga-ga for this annoying as squaky bass line that way way too many fucking people have used and for some reason that's ok. i'm not against using 303's or 909's or 808's or any of the trademark sounds people have latched onto, i just can't understand why people think this is socially acceptable in electronic music production but using any other kinds of presets is frowned on.

^

I use presets all the time.

  aeser said:

if they can't get the components to make them these days because they're not made anymore by anyone then if they released one it would just be an emulation, why bother with this? it will not sound exactly the same, and it's not like there is any shortage of 303 emulations today, you can download countless software emulations.

 

i never got what the fuck is so special about the 303, or the 909 for that matter, i am fond of the 808 but again, the sounds are fucking everywhere, and if you're so hellbent on authenticity you can still buy a used original one (assuming you want to drop that kind of money on authenticity).

 

i just don't get why people can be so anti-using any kind of preset, or be against using the amen break or tons of other shit then go ga-ga for this annoying as squaky bass line that way way too many fucking people have used and for some reason that's ok. i'm not against using 303's or 909's or 808's or any of the trademark sounds people have latched onto, i just can't understand why people think this is socially acceptable in electronic music production but using any other kinds of presets is frowned on.

maybe you just forget [havnt the chance to have a rinse on a 303].. that they're extremely fun to play with and even more fun to make tracks with...

also i have found playing a number of gigs where i wack on the gabba people some people dance but when i wack on the 303 everybody dances.. it's instant funky...

and i can still listen to tom tom by the circlejerks which is just a 303 and 707 and still go fucking mental...

they're not making it. period. get the x0xb0x.

  chris moss acid said:

  aeser said:

if they can't get the components to make them these days because they're not made anymore by anyone then if they released one it would just be an emulation, why bother with this? it will not sound exactly the same, and it's not like there is any shortage of 303 emulations today, you can download countless software emulations.

 

i never got what the fuck is so special about the 303, or the 909 for that matter, i am fond of the 808 but again, the sounds are fucking everywhere, and if you're so hellbent on authenticity you can still buy a used original one (assuming you want to drop that kind of money on authenticity).

 

i just don't get why people can be so anti-using any kind of preset, or be against using the amen break or tons of other shit then go ga-ga for this annoying as squaky bass line that way way too many fucking people have used and for some reason that's ok. i'm not against using 303's or 909's or 808's or any of the trademark sounds people have latched onto, i just can't understand why people think this is socially acceptable in electronic music production but using any other kinds of presets is frowned on.

 

maybe you just forget [havnt the chance to have a rinse on a 303].. that they're extremely fun to play with and even more fun to make tracks with...

 

also i have found playing a number of gigs where i wack on the gabba people some people dance but when i wack on the 303 everybody dances.. it's instant funky...

 

and i can still listen to tom tom by the circlejerks which is just a 303 and 707 and still go fucking mental...

no, i understand it's fun to play with, so is the amen, and tons of presets out there, but the general attitude i've always gotten is that using presets is almost akin to cheating (i do not happen to agree) yet using the same tired old sounds from a 303 is generally still considered cool for some reason.

  Quote

303s are not wanted and not desirable to all but a tiny clique of the musician market. you all seem to have an overblown overestimation of the number of folk who actually give a fuck.

well if you look at their 14 year long over-inflatted s/h price - consider that they weren't exactly rare in the first place, and that they're mostly being bought by musicians, not collectors - i'd say the worldwide demand is still great

there's no other music gear, apart from very rare, expensive collector's items (GX-1, Memory Moog, Synthi AKS), which has that kind of track record

the only way it can stay consistantly over-inflated is if demand is consistant and unmet

the reason roland don't want to go back to manufacturing analog synths is because it's much cheaper for them to stick the same DSP chip in 50 different cheap, plastic boxes

with the profit margin they make now, it just isn't worth going back down that road... they'd sell tens of thousands... it would outsell anything roland's released in the last 10 years - but the profits wouldn't reflect that

  aeser said:

no, i understand it's fun to play with, so is the amen, and tons of presets out there, but the general attitude i've always gotten is that using presets is almost akin to cheating (i do not happen to agree) yet using the same tired old sounds from a 303 is generally still considered cool for some reason.

nah, the presets = cheating thing is just KVR bullshit

there's no such thing as cheating in music

there's just music and the person who listens to the music... it's not cheating if the Ferrari 575 and Jaguar XK use the same body shape as the Aston Martin DB7

it's just about what you want to drive

the whole "cheating" thing just comes about when arrogant teens start trying make dance music - where everything's some kind of pissing contest and getting signed is an unnattainable dream reserved for the people they deify

releasing records is a business just like any other - any idiot program their own bass and pad sounds in a softsynth - there's nothing to prove by using your own as opposed to someone else's... the real art of music and production is much more about context and how you use what you've got

it's why so many of these jokers release rubbish, vacuous, unsignable nonsense - because they're just focusing on the tools

  The Moon said:

with the profit margin they make now, it just isn't worth going back down that road... they'd sell tens of thousands... it would outsell anything roland's released in the last 10 years - but the profits wouldn't reflect that

Indeed. But there's such a thing as a 'prestige' product - something you release more for positive press and credibility than for sales - it gets you the cover of all the big mags come NAMM time, and you can use it to drive sales of spinoff merch (eg 303 accessories that all the geeks HAVE to buy, but which cost dick all to make, or or a VA "micro303" that you make in WAY larger quantities than the "deluxe" real analogue one)

  Analogue Wings said:

  The Moon said:

with the profit margin they make now, it just isn't worth going back down that road... they'd sell tens of thousands... it would outsell anything roland's released in the last 10 years - but the profits wouldn't reflect that

 

Indeed. But there's such a thing as a 'prestige' product - something you release more for positive press and credibility than for sales - it gets you the cover of all the big mags come NAMM time, and you can use it to drive sales of spinoff merch (eg 303 accessories that all the geeks HAVE to buy, but which cost dick all to make, or or a VA "micro303" that you make in WAY larger quantities than the "deluxe" real analogue one)

micro303, lol. i like the way you think :phone:

Yeah. I do understand all these points but i was/ am thinking along the lines of what analogue wings is saying/

well i think, if anything, roland have been riding the legendary status of the 303's, 909's, Juno's and Jupiters, since the analog renaissance

they haven't really released any seminal synth gear since the JD-800, just more and more unremarkable sounding plastic boxes, yet they're still seen as a major player

if they put the 303's back into production, i think there'd be a major risk of 303 fallout very shortly afterwards... and roland actually having to fight for their rep again

the 303 and 909 would be common as muck studio accessories - like patch cables and midi controllers - no longer 'much sought after' and aloof

there's also this issue that idiots generally don't buy 303's

idiots (i.e. KVR) use emulations, and therefore never actually produce any releasable music

if they could get their hands on real 303's, while maintaining their neurotic financial issues, they would pollute the 303 sound in just the same way they pollute Native Instrument's synths

how many people here actually talk to Roland (any country) on a regular basis?

How many have talked to Roland on a regular basis for over 15 years?

THEY WILL NEVER RE-MAKE THE 303

mo

  The Moon said:

  aeser said:

no, i understand it's fun to play with, so is the amen, and tons of presets out there, but the general attitude i've always gotten is that using presets is almost akin to cheating (i do not happen to agree) yet using the same tired old sounds from a 303 is generally still considered cool for some reason.

 

nah, the presets = cheating thing is just KVR bullshit

 

there's no such thing as cheating in music

 

there's just music and the person who listens to the music... it's not cheating if the Ferrari 575 and Jaguar XK use the same body shape as the Aston Martin DB7

 

it's just about what you want to drive

 

 

the whole "cheating" thing just comes about when arrogant teens start trying make dance music - where everything's some kind of pissing contest and getting signed is an unnattainable dream reserved for the people they deify

 

releasing records is a business just like any other - any idiot program their own bass and pad sounds in a softsynth - there's nothing to prove by using your own as opposed to someone else's... the real art of music and production is much more about context and how you use what you've got

 

it's why so many of these jokers release rubbish, vacuous, unsignable nonsense - because they're just focusing on the tools

i happen to agree completely

LOL- The Mc303. Is that some kind of new burger from McDonalds??

  BCM said:

LOL- The Mc303. Is that some kind of new burger from McDonalds??

It's just as cheap , but not quite as tasty/

a good patch programmed in a good VA can fool 100% of the people 99% of the time

edit: and the other 1% is a false positive - I can't tell you how many times I've posted samples of analog synths and been told they're digital emulations.

well that depends how you record them

you'll never get a VA to give you the kind of bass you get out of a Pro One or MC202

it depends what kind of mix you're working with - when you've got a busy mix, i don't get far with synths like the Virus or Z1 for bass - you can play exactly the same bassline with an Octave Cat and it'll lift the whole track... but just like using a Focusrite Red pre-amp vs a Blue, it's how you use and work with it, not just the fact it's a Red, or a Blue, it's context again

you can easily make an analog synth sound like a VA - just by recording it with a cheap soundcard or playing it back from something like Kontakt with dodgy playback filtering

think of mixing like cooking... you make a curry using ghee instead of cooking oil, and it's a much better curry

doesn't mean your guests are going to be able to say with any certainty whether or not you've used ghee - that would take an expert in indian cookery

but that doesn't mean they don't think your curry kicks arse

i've always wondered about ghee. would it level up my curries?

yeah it does. most of the times its worth the little bit of extra trouble! a good curry is one of the best things in the world.

thing is though with the state of butter emulations today........

  The Moon said:

well that depends how you record them

 

you'll never get a VA to give you the kind of bass you get out of a Pro One or MC202

Old wives tales and rubbish. If there aren't VAs that can do a perfect emulation of those particular synths it's only because no one's bothered yet.

  fleetmouse said:

  The Moon said:

well that depends how you record them

 

you'll never get a VA to give you the kind of bass you get out of a Pro One or MC202

 

Old wives tales and rubbish. If there aren't VAs that can do a perfect emulation of those particular synths it's only because no one's bothered yet.

Oh I'm being a dick again, ignore the above.

I'm just curious why you'd say "never".

gabba and acid.

the only music you now hear at gigs...fucking shit(quote; 24 hour party people)

dont get me wrong acid is wicked, and so is a bit of gabba, this is why roland would not bring back the tb...

  fleetmouse said:

  fleetmouse said:

  The Moon said:

well that depends how you record them

 

you'll never get a VA to give you the kind of bass you get out of a Pro One or MC202

 

Old wives tales and rubbish. If there aren't VAs that can do a perfect emulation of those particular synths it's only because no one's bothered yet.

 

Oh I'm being a dick again, ignore the above.

 

I'm just curious why you'd say "never".

that's cool, i've been using VA's and analog's together since the nord lead and prophecy were first out

the problem isn't really processing power at all - it's the nature of mathematics

when you turn the filter down on an MC202 square wave, you expect to find a sinewave as the high frequencies are brought under control

what you actually see is a really abstract looking, skewed kind of sine wave - and a tone which sounds unique to that synth...

the problem is, how do you turn that into an equation? the wave you see isn't necessarily linear or logical at all

think about modelling something really simple, like an analog compressor or pre-amp

that's 1/10th as complex as an analog synth

yet the high-end units, like the sintefex and liquid channel, actually get on better with dynamic convolution technology, which involves sampling every impulse response, using a vast amount of DSP power, and at every level and frequency and building up a huge lookup table/database of possible outcomes

it still suffers from digititus, because the nonlinear responses still ultimately have to be implemented in a linear fashion - but it's still actually a much more effective method of getting analog-like compression or amplification, than trying to model the characteristics mathematically

it's sort of getting into incompleteness theorem, because you string a few functions/components together, and you quickly end up with so many axioms in the equation you'd need to work them out, that it becomes infinitely complicated - in goedel's theory, the equation would be more complicated than actually modelling the circuitry and paths of each electron in the synth/compressor

they sometimes use the example of creating a computer to predict when another computer was about to crash

the other problem is that a lot of simple analog processes, like filtering, are actually very difficult to perform digitally at all... you need to apply a completely different approach - and the mathematical problems are again vast

it's actually almost impossible to create a perfect digital filter/EQ - you'd need almost infinite processing power to work out a filtered signal free from aliasing... which is sort of when waves which are used to represent certain frequencies fall in and out of phase... if you try creating a 10 second long 11,023hz sinewave in soundforge, at 44.1khz sample rate, you'll see a classic example of unavoidable aliasing

in digital processing you have to guess and cut corners a lot more than you'd think - it's actually difficult working with any frequency that doesn't divide down perfectly from the sample frequency... when you create your 11,023hz sine wave, no real time analyzer (try soundforge's own statistics and spectragraphs) will be able to tell you exactly what frequency it's meant to be... you'd actually need an infinitely long wave sample for it to do that, and an infinitely powerful computer, of course, to work it out

so it's very difficult modelling real world physics and non-linearity - and with audio, any subtle repetition or linearity sounds artificial and obvious to us... the problem with digital audio, is that as soon as we want to change the tone of an oscillator, or the response of a filter, we introduce aliasing all over the place, and every bit of aliasing is information/tone lost, and linearity induced

  The Moon said:

(a page of difficult maths)

Wow, good answer. I had a play in Reaktor with the scopes, and various oscillators and filters, and you know what? You're right. When you're right, you're right. The sines aren't pure and when you filter a square wave its character disappears.

Even with the sampling rate bumped up to 192kHz the sine wave's still a bit wonky.