Religion

edit: well fuck it last time i share personal shiz with u

  On 1/12/2014 at 6:26 AM, LimpyLoo said:

I thought this was quite relevant to the Chen V. Limpy debate about Buddhism. Here Sam Harris essentially--to put it bluntly--pleads with Buddhists to shed all the bullshit and just keep the good stuff.

 

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/

 

It is pretty much the opposite of what Chen and Zaphod seem to be saying, which is "Why buy into the good stuff if you're not gonna buy into the bullshit?"

i actually don't think that's what chen is saying. my post is more of a dismissive reaction to a specific kind of lazy westerner new age person and probably has little to do with what chen is saying. i'll let him speak for himself here but i think you've been missing his point throughout the course of this thread.

  On 1/12/2014 at 7:11 AM, zaphod said:

 

  On 1/12/2014 at 6:26 AM, LimpyLoo said:

I thought this was quite relevant to the Chen V. Limpy debate about Buddhism. Here Sam Harris essentially--to put it bluntly--pleads with Buddhists to shed all the bullshit and just keep the good stuff.

 

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/killing-the-buddha/

 

It is pretty much the opposite of what Chen and Zaphod seem to be saying, which is "Why buy into the good stuff if you're not gonna buy into the bullshit?"

 

i actually don't think that's what chen is saying. my post is more of a dismissive reaction to a specific kind of lazy westerner new age person and probably has little to do with what chen is saying. i'll let him speak for himself here but i think you've been missing his point throughout the course of this thread.

 

I think he was saying that it's disingenuous to practice certain aspects of Buddhism and reject others. Whereas, I think that's the only path to make sense. I don't think it makes any sense to ignore whatever wisdom Buddhism might or might not have to offer, and similarly I don't think it makes any sense to have to accept the bathwater along with the baby.

To address what you said: cherrypicking Buddhism is the sensible thing to do. The fact that you are more annoyed by the cherrypickers than the Buddhists who believe weirdo shit that we in the 21st century know is simply false...that is just weird on your part, and symptomatic of the backwards way that beliefs are dealt with in the world.

no, that's all wrong. i'm not annoyed merely by someone who is interested in aspects of buddhism, i'm annoyed by a particular mindset where you say you "practice" a religion and then just occasionally read books about it without any of the ritual associated with actually practicing a religion. no interaction with any kind of community, no breadth of knowledge about the history of it or understanding of the nuance it might have within a culture. there's a big difference. this is a problem with a kind of western mindset regarding eastern religions as being a cool alternative thing to have a passing interest in. it's not a weird reaction to have, it's weird to be so surface oriented and i think most people who "cherrypick" are just kind of lazy. anyway, i'm gonna bow out of this thread because these discussions go nowhere and i'm not getting my point across very well.

We have different definitions of surface level interest. As someone who's interested in helpful outlooks on everyday life, I look to one part of a religion. (I think it's only worth it to do that of you're going to integrate it into you're daily life - I don't care if people think I'm religious or spiritual, I just want to live as well as possible.)

You seem to look to another part of it - a cultural reference? A community? I'm not sure, but if that's what works for you, you should do that. I don't want to talk about spirituality in a group that much. I'd rather personally experiment with the knowledge I find.

A/D you're always suspiciously reasonable

Like Tauboo I haven't read any of this thread except the last 2 pages...didn't we already do this? Like, a few months ago?

  On 1/12/2014 at 7:56 AM, zaphod said:

no, that's all wrong. i'm not annoyed merely by someone who is interested in aspects of buddhism, i'm annoyed by a particular mindset where you say you "practice" a religion and then just occasionally read books about it without any of the ritual associated with actually practicing a religion. no interaction with any kind of community, no breadth of knowledge about the history of it or understanding of the nuance it might have within a culture. there's a big difference. this is a problem with a kind of western mindset regarding eastern religions as being a cool alternative thing to have a passing interest in. it's not a weird reaction to have, it's weird to be so surface oriented and i think most people who "cherrypick" are just kind of lazy. anyway, i'm gonna bow out of this thread because these discussions go nowhere and i'm not getting my point across very well.

Well then it's a good thing I never ever hinted at the idea that I practiced Buddhism.

But I think mostly we (me, you and chen) are misunderstanding each other and being misunderstood. For instance, I thought you meant anyone in general who cherrypicks Buddhism (including people who don't self-identify as "Buddhist"), but when you refined your point above I agree with virtually all of it.

I completely agree that it would be comical (and, honestly, a typically-Western thing to do) for some Orange County kid to go around proclaiming he's a Buddhist because he takes bigger slower breaths than the rest of us. My girlfriend knew a white (of course) college kid who "went" Rastafarian and actually aped the accent and everything, walking around talking about how "I and I's got to get out of Babylon" (once again: with a put-on Rastafarian accent). So yeah it turns out I agree with you.

People still believe in Yeezus so the old thread didn't work obviously

This one needed to be made

  On 1/12/2014 at 8:26 AM, lumpenprol said:

A/D you're always suspiciously reasonable

 

 

Seriously.

If we were all in a building and then it caught fire and we were minutes from death he'd calmly be like "alright guys, looks like it's time to go."

You rock me, A/D.

I'm glad you mentioned that, because I'm pretty sure this thread is on fire. Any last remarks guys? I think GI Joe is coming to escort us out in a minute.

why is it that the only idiots in this thread are those that claim there are no gods?

#atheismdefeated

When atheism has become the norm, idiots have become part of it as well.

  On 1/13/2014 at 8:38 AM, goDel said:

When atheism has become the norm, idiots have become part of it as well.

lol, I guess that's true.

funny how things can flip-flop. Everyone likes an underdog but no-one likes a bully, and sometimes the transition is barely perceptible. You have people like Bertrand Russell, and then you have...Richard Dawkins being a cunt.

All religions seem to have some interesting bits. Buddhism is pretty interesting. Jesus was pretty interesting. The Muslim emphasis on helping the poor is cool. W00t. There's my contribution.

What, no scientologists around here?

behold, the perfect human

(his gums look awfully swollen)

  On 1/13/2014 at 8:48 AM, lumpenprol said:

  On 1/13/2014 at 8:38 AM, goDel said:

When atheism has become the norm, idiots have become part of it as well.

lol, I guess that's true.

 

funny how things can flip-flop. Everyone likes an underdog but no-one likes a bully, and sometimes the transition is barely perceptible. You have people like Bertrand Russell, and then you have...Richard Dawkins being a cunt.

 

All religions seem to have some interesting bits. Buddhism is pretty interesting. Jesus was pretty interesting. The Muslim emphasis on helping the poor is cool. W00t. There's my contribution.

I agree with this completely.

Also, having spent the last year and a half 'losing' or 'walking away from' my Christian faith, it's been a really weird transition and honestly I don't know how to come out to my family and some of my more hardcore friends. Yet I feel I'm a better person and in general I feel more free than at any point in my life while trying to strive to 'live properly.'

I didn't want to make another thread on religion, but anyone here who made the transition have any advice on the interpersonal bits of this?

Limpy: I'll have a look at the link either tonight or tomorrow depending on how paper writing and grant applications go....:(

  On 1/13/2014 at 4:55 PM, Sprigg said:

I didn't want to make another thread on religion, but anyone here who made the transition have any advice on the interpersonal bits of this?

I never had important christian friends, so I can't comment on that, but even though it's been over 10 years, my christian family has never really accepted my denouncing of faith, especially my mother. Earlier in this thread, Data gave some insight in the religious climate of sweden, i.e very sparse, but there's a history of strong christian areas, usually the nondenominational or pentecostal kind. I remember a lot of nasty arguments in my early-to-mid teens when I made the decision. Eventually, we stopped talking about it - I stopped expecting them to accept it, they stopped expecting me to "return to the fold", at least they stopped joking about it. Things have always been a bit difficult and uneasy for that reason, there's a certain distance that I'm sure haunts most families with splits in belief systems. It was troublesome in my late teens, I really struggled to find my identity outside of the family. But I don't mind it now, for me to express my true identity is the most important thing in the world.

For some reason it got worse when I acknowledged my Buddhist faith than when I was atheist. But other than that, in my more mature days, I have become more at peace with the way things are, and don't make a big deal out of it - I won't hesitate to go with them to church as a nice gesture.

There's no advice I can give. It will probably be hard to keep such a significant aspect of your life under wraps, and it will likely suck to "come out". You have to understand that if these people are true christians, they will really, really believe that you will go to hell if you keep this up, you cannot go around that. You have to make the decision whether to pay respects to that, or express who you are without fear. They might not accept it, but with time, they might come to respect it.

  On 1/13/2014 at 4:55 PM, Sprigg said:

 

  On 1/13/2014 at 8:48 AM, lumpenprol said:

 

  On 1/13/2014 at 8:38 AM, goDel said:

When atheism has become the norm, idiots have become part of it as well.

lol, I guess that's true.

 

funny how things can flip-flop. Everyone likes an underdog but no-one likes a bully, and sometimes the transition is barely perceptible. You have people like Bertrand Russell, and then you have...Richard Dawkins being a cunt.

 

All religions seem to have some interesting bits. Buddhism is pretty interesting. Jesus was pretty interesting. The Muslim emphasis on helping the poor is cool. W00t. There's my contribution.

 

I agree with this completely.

 

Also, having spent the last year and a half 'losing' or 'walking away from' my Christian faith, it's been a really weird transition and honestly I don't know how to come out to my family and some of my more hardcore friends. Yet I feel I'm a better person and in general I feel more free than at any point in my life while trying to strive to 'live properly.'

 

I didn't want to make another thread on religion, but anyone here who made the transition have any advice on the interpersonal bits of this?

 

Having grown up in a pretty religious family, the only thing I can say is slowly feed them bits and pieces, and always do it politely; these are people you love. They are probably just as eager to understand as you are to explain. My family at this point pretty much knows I am an atheist and we still occasionally talk about religious stuff...just recently me and my father were discussing some new book he read about Abraham. Sounded interesting.

  On 1/13/2014 at 4:55 PM, Sprigg said:

 

I didn't want to make another thread on religion, but anyone here who made the transition have any advice on the interpersonal bits of this?

 

Only thing I can say, is that the best possible outcome is that they respect that you don't actively take part in all those religious habits and customs. The discussion about it being just a belief and you're into other beliefs is, imo, fruitless. If they can respect that you've stopped practicing the religion actively, than that's it.

They have their identity based on that religion. Whenever you start a discussion putting religion and therefore their identity into discussion, you potentially touch on their core values and self-worth. And that's a pretty impossible conversation to have comfortably, if you know what I mean. Deep down, they will probably know. But even if that is the case, they won't acknowledge it. Especially when taking their religious peers into account. There might be lots of peer pressure amongst their religious friends. Don't forget that. It's not just about your freedom. It's also about theirs.

Sprigg, I don't have any personal experience to offer, but are they "by-the-book" Christians or "spiritual" Christians? I feel like the spiritual ones will be interested in talking about your faith, while the by-the-book ones will have a panic attack.

Either way, if you tell them you feel like a better person, they should really support you. So the onus is on them to expand their sphere of understanding.

Just for further clarification, my parents were rather orthodox Catholics, and initially they weren't happy about it, but I felt the key was remaining firm to my beliefs (or in this case, a lack of belief in what they believed). Over time I feel if your family really cares for you, they will adapt and sort of let it go.

Its only the batshit psychologically messed up families Ive known via friends that essentially throw you out of the family because you are condemned to Hell.

Thanks for the responses, guys. My family are very by-the-book fundamentalist types with pentacostal/ nondenominational leanings. I essentially avoid most religious and political discussions with them, though I have the utmost respect for them and their beliefs. I discuss theology sometimes with them. I don't attend church regularly (though I do go sometimes), and that bothers them immensely, and they are aware I don't pray or read my bible. I just know that they'll feel they failed raising me, and they'll be absolutely shattered, and that makes the whole thing extremely hard.

It does help though, that my younger brothers are in much the same boat with their spirituality. It's just tough, I felt like I was living a lie while practicing it, and now I feel the same while not, feeling I have to hide it.

Edit: for further clarification, my father was a pastor and youth pastor, and they are always active in their churches. Three years ago I was looking into doing missions work for life, now I just want to help people because it's the right thing to do.

O, and you might be screwed when you want to marry your special one and she isn't religious as well. By that time, they should either respect that you're going into another direction when it comes to religion, or, if you really love your potential wife, you might have to make a choice between her and your family. In the worst case scenario, that is.

And expect the same discussion when you start having kids. Consider that you might need your parents to look after them whenever you and your lovely (non religious?) wife have other stuff to do.