ISIS!

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

  On 5/26/2015 at 12:37 AM, caze said:

lol, the US government has funded ISIS?!?!

yes it has ... video uno

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:37 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

But if the vast majority of Muslims are balanced individuals, haven't they already gone through their reformation? I mean you could argue that Christianity needs a reformation if all you ever read about is the God Hates Fags group.

Knowhatimean?

I think you're drawing an unnecessary connection between being balanced in your personal life - emotionally, mentally, etc - and the belief system you follow. the two don't necessarily connect. in fact people are all too eager to draw that connection and it's a basic foible when trying to talk about any of this stuff. reality proves otherwise.

https://youtu.be/zh20apjqdI0

watch those clips guys, i embrace you all as brothers and hope that you can bring that all on board. (yes usagi you too man). This is so important.

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:59 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:37 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

yeah it's an extremely reasonable post

covers most of the bases

but again, no-one said that 'religion is evil'

 

basically

i just want to hear people admit that

there are indeed wrong answers for how to organize a global civilization

and fairy tales and blasphemy laws are two of those wrong answers

 

 

basically, you should fuck off to /r/atheism with your simple-ass shit. you've repeatedly shown that you're not interested in finding common ground with people who don't follow your beliefs, and there is simply no room for that kind of unconstructive, opposition-based dialogue in this world anymore (fuck Hitchens and Harris for the same reason). it costs, you understand. it broadens the divide and ordinary people on both sides suffer for it. and all for the sake of you feeling good about opening your gob and letting the world hear your naive bullshit, because, let's face it, you're not really interested in changing anything.

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:38 AM, delet... said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 12:37 AM, caze said:

lol, the US government has funded ISIS?!?!

 

yes it has ... video uno

 

 

Did you watch that video? Because it doesn't back up that claim, it doesn't support the idea that the US funded ISIS at all. Al Qaeda in Iraq, and Al Nusra are not the same thing as ISIS, though the former kind of morphed into ISIS, the latter has recently been fighting with ISIS. The fact that the US supported forces who may have worked with either of those two organisations is not the same as directly funding them, the US did directly fund and arm the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan in the 80s (which eventually gave rise to Al Qaeda), but they did not directly fund or arm ISIS.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:14 AM, usagi said:

 

basically, you should fuck off to /r/atheism with your simple-ass shit. you've repeatedly shown that you're not interested in finding common ground with people who don't follow your beliefs, and there is simply no room for that kind of unconstructive, opposition-based dialogue in this world anymore (fuck Hitchens and Harris for the same reason). it costs, you understand. it broadens the divide and ordinary people on both sides suffer for it. and all for the sake of you feeling good about opening your gob and letting the world hear your naive bullshit, because, let's face it, you're not really interested in changing anything.

why don't you stop attempting to misrepresent other people's beliefs instead of telling them to fuck off? appologism for iron age death cults is far more costly than pointing out the fact that certain people do indeed believe in incredibly nasty shit that has no place in the modern world.

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:37 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

 

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

 

I'm going to add a caveat here by the way to do with the bit about "sharia law", and that is that there is a serious misunderstanding about what sharia actually is, both on the part of extremist Muslims and non-Muslims. sharia is not some kind of unholy codex for pillaging, plunder and oppression, as much as Western dialogue likes to use it to inspire fear of the Other. "sharia" means simply means rule of law as guided by the basic Islamic principles laid down in the Quran and the ahadith, the word itself implies nothing about how liberal or how conservative or how progressive or how backwards those laws are.

it's like people saying "chai tea" in English, when "chai" just means "tea" in Urdu.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:27 AM, caze said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:14 AM, usagi said:

 

basically, you should fuck off to /r/atheism with your simple-ass shit. you've repeatedly shown that you're not interested in finding common ground with people who don't follow your beliefs, and there is simply no room for that kind of unconstructive, opposition-based dialogue in this world anymore (fuck Hitchens and Harris for the same reason). it costs, you understand. it broadens the divide and ordinary people on both sides suffer for it. and all for the sake of you feeling good about opening your gob and letting the world hear your naive bullshit, because, let's face it, you're not really interested in changing anything.

 

why don't you stop attempting to misrepresent other people's beliefs instead of telling them to fuck off? appologism for iron age death cults is far more costly than pointing out the fact that certain people do indeed believe in incredibly nasty shit that has no place in the modern world.

 

talking about misrepresenting and calling a belief system followed by over a billion people an "iron age death cult", in the same sentence. lol. why don't you read the rules?

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:31 AM, usagi said:

 

 

talking about misrepresenting and calling a belief system followed by over a billion people an "iron age death cult", in the same sentence. lol. why don't you read the rules?

wow, didn't take you long to continue misrepresenting did it? as I've pointed out ad-nauseum, there is no one true Islam. the "iron age death cult" I'm referring to is clearly ISIS (this is the ISIS thread, right?), and their particular brand of Islam.

nobody is apologising for ISIS. I think you're having trouble comprehending that.

PS: read the rules.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:14 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:59 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:37 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

yeah it's an extremely reasonable post

covers most of the bases

but again, no-one said that 'religion is evil'

 

basically

i just want to hear people admit that

there are indeed wrong answers for how to organize a global civilization

and fairy tales and blasphemy laws are two of those wrong answers

 

 

 

basically, you should fuck off to /r/atheism with your simple-ass shit. you've repeatedly shown that you're not interested in finding common ground with people who don't follow your beliefs, and there is simply no room for that kind of unconstructive, opposition-based dialogue in this world anymore (fuck Hitchens and Harris for the same reason). it costs, you understand. it broadens the divide and ordinary people on both sides suffer for it. and all for the sake of you feeling good about opening your gob and letting the world hear your naive bullshit, because, let's face it, you're not really interested in changing anything.

 

wow dude go fuck yourself with your bullshit

we were all being relatively civil until you came around with your fucking teenage insults and lol r/atheism

holy shit are you a cunt, mate

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:35 AM, usagi said:

nobody is apologising for ISIS. I think you're having trouble comprehending that.

 

 

you're clearly not interested what we ACTUALLY think and believe

so yeah fuck off with your strawman shit

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:35 AM, usagi said:

nobody is apologising for ISIS. I think you're having trouble comprehending that.

 

PS: read the rules.

I've not done anything against the rules, you however have told another poster to fuck off. Let he who is without sin etc.

Ignoring and deflecting criticism of the belief structures of ISIS is apologising for them.

and on the matter of Sharia:

the whole idea is that it's laws based on the teaching and example of Muhammad

a violent, superstitious, barbaric warlord

i reject even the most benign version of Sharia

and you're an idiot for making apologies for it, Usagi

fucking lol

brainwashed idiot

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:38 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:14 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:59 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 2:37 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 7:28 PM, Npoess said:

The human brain hardwired for religious thinking and faith, this have been proven in many studies, even some atheists reflects this with the deification of rationalism and sciences - so saying religion is evil is like saying that humans are inherently evil.

 

Islam is an old and static religion, just like societies, this religion should have gone through a developing reformation process that follows societal evolution, which obviously haven't happened, support of sharia law says that a reformation is long overdue.

 

Then are the really extremist muslims, they are obviously only a very small percentage of the overall muslim population of the world, most muslim are completely normal and balanced people like the rest of us, but obviously we almost exclusively hear about the extreme and fundamentalists through the western media, which paints the picture of a culture of destructive and villainous character. From a historical perceptive that's highly hypocritical, since a lot of gloomy characteristics were the case for own culture, and even today we see that right extremism (for example) is much more prevalent in western cultures than it's ever discussed and portrayed by our own media, it's just disconnected from religion here, but it is still here - obviously just to say that labelling a specific culture as particularly evil is moronic and ignorant.

 

All that being said, a reformation and modernization of Islam, I think, would suppress some aspects that make some extremism morally legitimatized (for the very few that are obviously drawn to it to begin with), it might not eradicate extremism completely from the world, but some of the medieval aspects of Islam are just not calibrated for the modern world. Like when death penalty for infidelity is considered necessary by sharia law, there are definitely aspects that needs to be modernized, that simply can't be acceptable anymore and Muslims should rebel against it and distance themselves from it (this I genuinely believe), especially when they migrate to cultures where it's not acceptable anymore. They don't need assimilate to their new culture in any way, or give up on their religious beliefs, but certain aspects of the Islamic religion are simply things of the past that doesn't belong in the modern world.

best post itt. sheeit, best Islam-related post I've ever seen on WATMM.

yeah it's an extremely reasonable post

covers most of the bases

but again, no-one said that 'religion is evil'

 

basically

i just want to hear people admit that

there are indeed wrong answers for how to organize a global civilization

and fairy tales and blasphemy laws are two of those wrong answers

 

 

 

basically, you should fuck off to /r/atheism with your simple-ass shit. you've repeatedly shown that you're not interested in finding common ground with people who don't follow your beliefs, and there is simply no room for that kind of unconstructive, opposition-based dialogue in this world anymore (fuck Hitchens and Harris for the same reason). it costs, you understand. it broadens the divide and ordinary people on both sides suffer for it. and all for the sake of you feeling good about opening your gob and letting the world hear your naive bullshit, because, let's face it, you're not really interested in changing anything.

 

 

wow dude go fuck yourself with your bullshit

 

we were all being relatively civil until you came around with your fucking teenage insults and lol r/atheism

 

holy shit are you a cunt, mate

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:35 AM, usagi said:

nobody is apologising for ISIS. I think you're having trouble comprehending that.

 

 

 

you're clearly not interested what we ACTUALLY think and believe

so yeah fuck off with your strawman shit

 

you've already stated what you think and believe, repeatedly, which is what I've responded to with a long-overdue fuck off. this isn't the first time you've expressed super-naive, uninformed opinions about complicated problems. all your arguments tend toward the simple and the hysterical (bonus points for starting a thread called Cop Murders Civilian instead of talking about real police-vs-community problems), and I and others are tired of it and frustrated by it. it truly seems like Reddit would be a better fit for you, that was not a casual insult. so yeah, I'm not retracting or apologising for any of that. furthermore, there is a difference, clearly unbeknownst to you, between telling someone to fuck off on the internet, which is nothing, and truly insulting them. but whatever.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:47 AM, LimpyLoo said:

and on the matter of Sharia:

 

the whole idea is that it's laws based on the teaching and example of Muhammad

a violent, superstitious, barbaric warlord

i reject even the most benign version of Sharia

and you're an idiot for making apologies for it, Usagi

fucking lol

brainwashed idiot

hahaha. aw, man. I rest my case. seeya later.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:47 AM, LimpyLoo said:

and on the matter of Sharia:

 

the whole idea is that it's laws based on the teaching and example of Muhammad

a violent, superstitious, barbaric warlord

i reject even the most benign version of Sharia

and you're an idiot for making apologies for it, Usagi

fucking lol

brainwashed idiot

it is possible to re-define Sharia away from the teaching and example of Muhammad though (though they'll never explain it as such of course), and that's what most Muslims have been doing up until relatively recently when the ultra-traditional aspects begin to start creeping back in again. The old testament is arguably more barbaric than the koran, but thankfully, with the exception of a few fringe nut cases in the US, Christians have managed to 're-interpret' away all most of the bullshit. Moderate Muslims do need help in countering the reactionary fringe within their ranks, unfortunately it's never going to be as easy as just convincing them they're all being dumbasses and drop the whole lot in one go. Part of that help is calling them on their bullshit where we see it.

I love all you guys, please stop being angry and uncivil etc. It's terribly upsetting.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:58 AM, doublename said:

I love all you guys, please stop being angry and uncivil etc. It's terribly upsetting.

I agree

sorry for calling you a idiot, Usagi

you know i love you

Let's try and get back to the non-attacking discussion please.

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:55 AM, caze said:

 

  On 5/26/2015 at 3:47 AM, LimpyLoo said:

and on the matter of Sharia:

 

the whole idea is that it's laws based on the teaching and example of Muhammad

a violent, superstitious, barbaric warlord

i reject even the most benign version of Sharia

and you're an idiot for making apologies for it, Usagi

fucking lol

brainwashed idiot

it is possible to re-define Sharia away from the teaching and example of Muhammad though (though they'll never explain it as such of course), and that's what most Muslims have been doing up until relatively recently when the ultra-traditional aspects begin to start creeping back in again. The old testament is arguably more barbaric than the koran, but thankfully, with the exception of a few fringe nut cases in the US, Christians have managed to 're-interpret' away all most of the bullshit. Moderate Muslims do need help in countering the reactionary fringe within their ranks, unfortunately it's never going to be as easy as just convincing them they're all being dumbasses and drop the whole lot in one go. Part of that help is calling them on their bullshit where we see it.

Now this is a post I can agree with pretty much 100%.

Can someone just please export punk rock to the region? I'm conviced that's all it will take. An underground punk rock movement within Islamic culture... As soon as ISIS hears the "Syrian Suckers'" "Bio Chem Street" 7 inch split with "Radical E-Moms", they'll put down their beheading weapons to drink Pabsts and shoot some pool.

  On 5/25/2015 at 9:34 PM, LimpyLoo said:

2) differencing moral attitudes doesn't mean that everybody's right

that's like saying differencing attitudes on 2+2=[?] means that 2+2 has multiple answers

 

by god, it's all arithmetic? how did I not see this before? It's self-evident: in general, three equidistant secular philosophy interjections yields 180 degree religious beliefs - all terrorists are muslims but not all muslims are terrorists - and the root of a muslim is always irrational

  On 5/26/2015 at 6:08 AM, luke viia said:

 

  On 5/25/2015 at 9:34 PM, LimpyLoo said:

2) differencing moral attitudes doesn't mean that everybody's right

that's like saying differencing attitudes on 2+2=[?] means that 2+2 has multiple answers

 

 

by god, it's all arithmetic? how did I not see this before? It's self-evident: in general, three equidistant secular philosophy interjections yields 180 degree religious beliefs - all terrorists are muslims but not all muslims are terrorists - and the root of a muslim is always irrational

 

well

i see i've hit a nerve with quite a few WATMMers here

(i had some critical things to say about witchcraft and astronomy

but i'll bite my tongue so as not to offend anyone here)

  On 5/26/2015 at 5:24 AM, Lane Visitor said:

Can someone just please export punk rock to the region? I'm conviced that's all it will take. An underground punk rock movement within Islamic culture... As soon as ISIS hears the "Syrian Suckers'" "Bio Chem Street" 7 inch split with "Radical E-Moms", they'll put down their beheading weapons to drink Pabsts and shoot some pool.

Didn't you see the movie nobody knows about Persian cats? There has been punk rock in middle eastern countries for years now

I know for sure Iran and Pakistan because I have the music but I am not sure about other countries

The band off the soundtrack for that movie nobody knows about Persian cats that was the most no wave was the yellow dogs

but unfortunately one of them went nuts and killed the other one so I guess that foils your solution.......It was a non Muslim related incident by the way

We are all fucked up

I don't quite get the comparative whose more fucked up competition that's going on in this thread