ISIS!

limpy surely you're aware that generalizing people negatively is a surefire way to cause problems, right? this is where we get things like biggotry, racism, stereotyping, discrimination, prejudice, sexism, hatespeech, hate-crimes, genocide, etc. generalization is how the mind works. nouns are generalizations. it's a tricky thing to not generalize in certain scenarios, but this is where generalization becomes more harmful than useful: when you generalize people negatively.

 

in this particular scenario, for example, the rhetoric you're posting on the internet is the kind of thing that could make muslim nations not want to to cooperate with western nations in their fight against isis.

Edited December 20, 2015 by very honest

I'm more afraid of Trump becoming prez than I ever was of ISIS t.b.q.h.

Can't be arsed to argue about religion tho

Edited December 20, 2015 by ambermonk

  On 12/20/2015 at 5:50 AM, very honest said:

limpy surely you're aware that generalizing people negatively is a surefire way to cause problems, right? this is where we get terms like biggotry, racism, stereotyping, discrimination, prejudice, sexism, hatespeech, hate-crimes, etc. generalization is how the mind works. nouns are generalizations. it's a tricky thing to not generalize in certain scenarios, but this is where generalization becomes more harmful than useful, when you generalize people negatively.

 

in this particular scenario, for example, the rhetoric you're posting on the internet is the kind of thing that could make muslim nations not want to to cooperate with western nations in their fight against isis.

1) Is your post a joke?

Point to one aspect of my post where I am overstating something

Where I am 'painting with a broad brush'

Where I am saying "Muslims are bad" or any variant thereof

Where I am implying that Muslims are sub-human

 

Muslims are people who (by definition) follow the example of Muhammad

That is a generalization the way 'all humans are mammals' is a generalization

 

 

 

 

2) that would be rather petty and immoral of them

Unfortunely, we find ourselves in a world where--if you point out that ISIS isn't doing anything that Muhammad himself didn't do (or at least advocate)--you get called a bigot.

 

As the saying goes: Truth is a microagression.

 

 

If Jesus or Buddha had taken sex slaves and beheaded people, I'm sure we'd all have a good laugh over it.

But if you point out that Muhammad (the ideal moral example in Islam) did these things...well that's bigotry.

  On 12/20/2015 at 6:19 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 5:50 AM, very honest said:

limpy surely you're aware that generalizing people negatively is a surefire way to cause problems, right? this is where we get terms like biggotry, racism, stereotyping, discrimination, prejudice, sexism, hatespeech, hate-crimes, etc. generalization is how the mind works. nouns are generalizations. it's a tricky thing to not generalize in certain scenarios, but this is where generalization becomes more harmful than useful, when you generalize people negatively.

 

in this particular scenario, for example, the rhetoric you're posting on the internet is the kind of thing that could make muslim nations not want to to cooperate with western nations in their fight against isis.

1) Is your post a joke?

Point to one aspect of my post where I am overstating something

Where I am 'painting with a broad brush'

Where I am saying "Muslims are bad" or any variant thereof

Where I am implying that Muslims are sub-human

 

 

 

 

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 5:34 AM, LimpyLoo said:

A) the most basic goal in Islam is to follow the example of Muhammad

(This is completely uncontroversial)

 

B) Muhammad took sex slaves* and beheaded people

(*the most charitable reading would be that he took slaves, then had sex with them...I'll leave it up to the reader to determine whether a slave is capable of giving genuine consent to sex)

 

come on man. 1 in 7 humans is muslim. the issue isnt that these fucks are muslim, they're just fucks like any fucks.

 

interpretation is a huge part of religion, you know.

Edited December 20, 2015 by very honest

I've looked far and wide for Muslims who say "if you read it literally, then yes Mohammad is a monster of the highest sort."

 

Show me one example of that, and then we can resume this conversation.

I've come to the realization that us lefties can either

 

Strive with our words and actions to make the world the liberal secular utopia that we want it to be

 

Or

 

Make 'liberal' sounds and try not to offend anyone.

 

...

 

You can have one or the other. (Very Honest, I fear you've chosen the latter.)

This, in my view, is the great identity crisis of the Left.

We see something that runs stone contrary to our basic humanist values

and we say "yeah, but it might be insensitive (or imperialistic) to point it out."

This is sheer cowardice

Shame on anyone with such jelly for a spine

  On 12/20/2015 at 7:26 AM, very honest said:

 

  Quote

 

I've looked far and wide for Muslims who say "if you read it literally, then yes Mohammad is a monster of the highest sort."

Show me one example of that, and then we can resume this conversation.

 

i'm sure there are some. you probably have a point about islam being a shitty religion based on a shitty dude. christianity is a shitty religion created by shitty dudes. even now the priests are fucking kids and helping each other get away with it. i certainly dont condone that, but it doesnt effect the esteem i have for christians i know. i certainly dont imagine they condone that shit. the way i see it it's like culture. you inherit it and you dont question it. doesnt mean you are ok with the worst aspects of it. very few break down every fucking thing to see if it all adds up, they go with the flow. so, given my above agreement on certain points you've made, i maintain that framing the isis issue as a muslim issue is counterproductive and imprecise. many power groups invoke religious terminology, it doesn't make them an appendage of the cited religion. there are other factors more relevant. they're fucked in the head, poor, lack grounding, etc. i'm sure you could make some logically sound points regarding contributions of muslim culture to the rise of isis, but i dont see isis as an appendage of islam, and, with this particular group that invokes islam, and in this conflict in which there are so many things that could go wrong, and in which cooperation with muslims is necessary for success, and when slowing recruitment that cites western persecution is key, i dont think framing the isis problem in terms of islam is a good idea.

sounds reasonable to me

 

I mean, you're sort of making a tangential point

That I wouldn't totally agree with

Perhaps Muslims and non-Muslims would get along better if the latter wasn't criticizing the beliefs of the former

That to me is a secondary, strategic matter

I don't think it should influence general debate such as this

I mean, look how much of our recent cultural progress seemed to stem from cultural friction

Imagine if both sides of every issue had bitten their tongue for fear of being impolite or impolitic

Edited December 20, 2015 by LimpyLoo

Limpy, I'm afraid the brush you're using is way too big to be effective. At least acknowledge that there are different kinds of Islam. You seem to talk about it as if it' s all Salafis trying to return to the days their profet lived. Thats a very specific set of ultra conservative beliefs thats not representative for islam as a whole.

  On 12/20/2015 at 8:08 AM, goDel said:

Limpy, I'm afraid the brush you're using is way too big to be effective. At least acknowledge that there are different kinds of Islam. You seem to talk about it as if it' s all Salafis trying to return to the days their profet lived. Thats a very specific set of ultra conservative beliefs thats not representative for islam as a whole.

I am not, though

Look at the end of my long post tonight:

 

"My plea to Islam...careful what you wish for"

 

My point is that clearly most Muslims don't like sex slaves and beheadings

And yet see Muhammad as the highest possible role model

i am saying that religion is a great way to get decent people to worship such a person

 

if I went out tomorrow and literally followed the example of Muhammad

I would go down in history with Dahmer and Gacy and the Columbine shooters

Now, if Mohommad's words and deeds aren't meant to be literal

Then how is Islam any different from Greek mythology?

You don't make any sense at all. There's no indication in any of your bulletpointed powerpoint posts that there are very different kinds of islam. It's all reduced to living like Mohammed. At which point you can brush islamism, christianity, and judaism all under one big rug.

 

What is the point you're trying to make? That all these religions are equal? I must have misunderstood your arguments in that case. I thought you were trying to clumsily put islam apart from the others.

Edited December 20, 2015 by goDel

  On 12/20/2015 at 9:09 AM, goDel said:

You don't make any sense at all. There's no indication in any of your bulletpointed powerpoint posts that there are very different kinds of islam. It's all reduced to living like Mohammed. At which point you can brush islamism, christianity, and judaism all under one big rug.

 

What is the point you're trying to make? That all these religions are equal? I must have misunderstood your arguments in that case. I thought you were trying to clumsily put islam apart from the others.

I'm saying that Muhammad was a monster and we (read: you) should stop making excuses for people who think he was the greatest moral teacher the world will ever know

 

 

Sent from my pee-pee using poo-poo

Was I making excuses?

 

Sounds like you've built yourself a mighty big old strawman to fight against. Congrats. Hope you'll achieve anything with it.

  On 12/20/2015 at 9:57 AM, goDel said:

Was I making excuses?

 

Sounds like you've built yourself a mighty big old strawman to fight against. Congrats. Hope you'll achieve anything with it.

I'm happy to quote you over the last couple pages

We can turn this strawman into a real flesh-and-blood man

 

 

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Sure, please do. If that makes you happy. Why not?

  On 12/20/2015 at 10:00 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 9:57 AM, goDel said:

Was I making excuses?

 

Sounds like you've built yourself a mighty big old strawman to fight against. Congrats. Hope you'll achieve anything with it.

I'm happy to quote you over the last couple pages

We can turn this strawman into a real flesh-and-blood man

 

 

Sent from my pee-pee using poo-poo

 

 

Still waiting...

  On 12/20/2015 at 5:50 AM, very honest said:

limpy surely you're aware that generalizing people negatively is a surefire way to cause problems, right? this is where we get things like biggotry, racism, stereotyping, discrimination, prejudice, sexism, hatespeech, hate-crimes, genocide, etc. generalization is how the mind works. nouns are generalizations. it's a tricky thing to not generalize in certain scenarios, but this is where generalization becomes more harmful than useful: when you generalize people negatively.

 

in this particular scenario, for example, the rhetoric you're posting on the internet is the kind of thing that could make muslim nations not want to to cooperate with western nations in their fight against isis.

Nobody reading this forum is gonna go out and beat up a muslim because of what limpy wrote, this argument is bullshit.

 

Im not saying i agree 100% with limpy but if what he saying is sooo wrong i would like someone to take him on without using shorcuts or lazy stuff like "its a slippery slope" for fuxk sake like i said 98% people herr are left leaning, i dont know why people fear bigotry here.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Deer

  On 12/20/2015 at 12:27 PM, goDel said:

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 10:00 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 9:57 AM, goDel said:

Was I making excuses?

 

Sounds like you've built yourself a mighty big old strawman to fight against. Congrats. Hope you'll achieve anything with it.

I'm happy to quote you over the last couple pages

We can turn this strawman into a real flesh-and-blood man

 

 

Sent from my pee-pee using poo-poo

Still waiting...

 

I just woke up lol

 

(Is it possible to get the Tapatalk quote-within-quote thing fixed?)

 

Sent from my pee-pee using poo-poo

Edited December 20, 2015 by LimpyLoo

  On 12/20/2015 at 1:51 PM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

what VH said leans a lot closer to a more mature and appropriate response than to dissect the nature of islam as if it is directly the problem. basically that's what we've been doing for years and it hasn't worked. the attitude people adopt in this sense is important imo.

What we've been doing for years?

"We" can't even all agree that ISIS is Islamic.

Two pages ago people were saying "nothing to do with Islam"

So no "we" haven't been dissecting Islam for years

"We" have been too busy arguing whether or not Islam is even relevant

 

 

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  On 12/20/2015 at 8:55 AM, LimpyLoo said:

 

My point is that clearly most Muslims don't like sex slaves and beheadings

And yet see Muhammad as the highest possible role model

 

So essentially most muslims have managed to take out the sex slaves and beheadings and follow the good stuff?

Kind of like how modern day Christians don't do all the nutty shit in the bible?

 

 

 

Let's say, for the sake of argument, that ISIS is "Islamic extremism". So what? Does that change how you approach the problem of them trying to gain territory and power?

How do you define "Islamic extremism"? What actions does an individual have to take to be considered extremist?

  On 12/20/2015 at 1:36 PM, Deer said:

 

  On 12/20/2015 at 5:50 AM, very honest said:

limpy surely you're aware that generalizing people negatively is a surefire way to cause problems, right? this is where we get things like biggotry, racism, stereotyping, discrimination, prejudice, sexism, hatespeech, hate-crimes, genocide, etc. generalization is how the mind works. nouns are generalizations. it's a tricky thing to not generalize in certain scenarios, but this is where generalization becomes more harmful than useful: when you generalize people negatively.

 

in this particular scenario, for example, the rhetoric you're posting on the internet is the kind of thing that could make muslim nations not want to to cooperate with western nations in their fight against isis.

Nobody reading this forum is gonna go out and beat up a muslim because of what limpy wrote, this argument is bullshit.

 

Im not saying i agree 100% with limpy but if what he saying is sooo wrong i would like someone to take him on without using shorcuts or lazy stuff like "its a slippery slope" for fuxk sake like i said 98% people herr are left leaning, i dont know why people fear bigotry here.

 

 

Maybe not this forum - but you do know that attacks on Muslims in America have risen sharply in the last of couple of months, right? Do you think that just happened, or do you think that certain politicians and public figures saying "all muslims should be banned" might have something to do with it?

I know this and i fear it but the forum should be a safe space for discussion about reality without the fear of influencing hate crimes, just let the discussion flow without cheap way out.

 

I think if we gonna face reality face on we need these long unfiltered uncesored scientific discussions.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Deer

If someone reads what I write and is inspired to go hurt Muslims or otherwise oppress them

Then that person is stupid and fuck them

I have never advocated treating Muslims poorly

And I never will

If someone can't tell the difference been criticizing religious beliefs

And Trump-esque fascism

Then that person has lost the plot or never had it

 

 

 

 

 

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Hey Limpy, the tapatalk quote within a quote thing you mentioned is not your lame excuse to not try to find the flesh and blood strawman, is it?

MGF (btw, is that a GbV reference?)

We might be in the rather awkward position of having to admit that religion (as practiced by most people in the world) is not compatible with a modern secular humanist, rationalist society

As a reminder, 40-50% of Americans think the world is ~6,000 years old

We need to get serious about what civilization should look like

And grow a spine about it

It's not that Islam is 'the enemy'

It's that religion (as practiced by most people) might not be compatible with the world 'we' (e.g. You and me) want to live in

 

 

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