looks quite possible cameron is covering up the discovery of a new oilfield in scotland

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:05 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 6:05 PM, poblequadrat said:

Anyway, I like your attitude, BCM. Things have changed a bit as of lately but even now many Spaniards will still tell you that any vote on independence is "nationalistic" and that Catalans, Scots, Quebecois, etc. are "thieves" or "racists" and that the referendum should be prevented at any cost. It's refreshing to see you Brits just don't care!

 

 

As messiaen says, it's emotional for Scots themselves but for English, as there will likely be no massive change, it means not much to Englanders. However, I bet if there was something greater at stake--perhaps the aforementioned oil was crucial to us (I guess it is really) or if Scotland had the right to take the pound with them etcetera--I wonder if we'd be up in arms just as much as the Spaniards?

 

scotland will be using the pound anyway if we split.

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:12 PM, messiaen said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:05 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 6:05 PM, poblequadrat said:

Anyway, I like your attitude, BCM. Things have changed a bit as of lately but even now many Spaniards will still tell you that any vote on independence is "nationalistic" and that Catalans, Scots, Quebecois, etc. are "thieves" or "racists" and that the referendum should be prevented at any cost. It's refreshing to see you Brits just don't care!

 

 

As messiaen says, it's emotional for Scots themselves but for English, as there will likely be no massive change, it means not much to Englanders. However, I bet if there was something greater at stake--perhaps the aforementioned oil was crucial to us (I guess it is really) or if Scotland had the right to take the pound with them etcetera--I wonder if we'd be up in arms just as much as the Spaniards?

 

scotland will be using the pound anyway if we split.

 

That example was used to conjure a hypothetical situation where the pound was completely under Scottish control and was something the Scots could say 'England doesn't get to use this' as a reason for England being more irate at the split.

I didn't mean it was something that was truly happening, just an example as to something that would get us apathetic English more anti-split. To bring up the use of the pound was not my point.

Not that I personally care whether I use the pound, I might add. I'd happily use sparkly gems if they were legal tender.

id prefer to use childrens toe bones as currency.

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:12 PM, messiaen said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 7:05 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 6:05 PM, poblequadrat said:

Anyway, I like your attitude, BCM. Things have changed a bit as of lately but even now many Spaniards will still tell you that any vote on independence is "nationalistic" and that Catalans, Scots, Quebecois, etc. are "thieves" or "racists" and that the referendum should be prevented at any cost. It's refreshing to see you Brits just don't care!

 

As messiaen says, it's emotional for Scots themselves but for English, as there will likely be no massive change, it means not much to Englanders. However, I bet if there was something greater at stake--perhaps the aforementioned oil was crucial to us (I guess it is really) or if Scotland had the right to take the pound with them etcetera--I wonder if we'd be up in arms just as much as the Spaniards?

scotland will be using the pound anyway if we split.

is this what's being reported north of the border? just wondering as we get pretty much the opposite message here - i.e. westminster is saying they won't let scotland use the pound if they split.

yeah, its pretty well documented if you dig deeper than the mainstream media that that would benefit no-one, its a propaganda based scare tactic to get people to vote no.

il dig up the relevant articles.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-lie-that-wont-die/

what it means is that we would have less control over it though.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/what-you-wont-read-today/

they could always do as Ecuador does and not have their own currency. I'm not saying it's a good idea, but it plausibly be done re: Scotland & the pound

Edit: I see your article already covered this

  On 8/4/2014 at 8:20 PM, messiaen said:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-lie-that-wont-die/

 

 

what it means is that we would have less control over it though.

 

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/what-you-wont-read-today/

interesting...

We're going to be stuck with a repellent Conservative government forever if we lose Scottish Labour votes innit

I do hope quebec either fucks off or shuts the fuck up.

  On 8/4/2014 at 4:52 PM, BCM said:

why the fuck you having a go at me? I'm not even entering into your debate really, trying to get through to delet... on the scotland issue, i said I'm not bothered and good luck to them if they decide to leave. what i was trying to establish with my other argument is that the world and state of things today is generally ok and the human race is doing pretty well considering. people who say things like, the UK is on its way to hell etc are just plain wrong for a start and peddling a defeatist and fatalistic version of reality that really isn't true...everyone should relax, we're all ok. it's not perfect sure, but we're not living in hell or anything approaching it.

Doing better by the minute! ... oh wait, it's bad when the numbers go up

http://www.nationaldebtclocks.org/

What happens when virtually every man, woman and politician/leader/dictator creates and spends more money than we have natural resources on this planet to back it up, unable to sustain a global population that is growing faster than any species should? For the past decade or so, the world has been feeling the little waves that happen before the tsunami.

  On 8/4/2014 at 4:52 PM, BCM said:

why the fuck you having a go at me? I'm not even entering into your debate really, trying to get through to delet... on the scotland issue, i said I'm not bothered and good luck to them if they decide to leave. what i was trying to establish with my other argument is that the world and state of things today is generally ok and the human race is doing pretty well considering. people who say things like, the UK is on its way to hell etc are just plain wrong for a start and peddling a defeatist and fatalistic version of reality that really isn't true...everyone should relax, we're all ok. it's not perfect sure, but we're not living in hell or anything approaching it.

never mind delet, he just enjoys being as annoying as possible. railing against immigrants... ain't nobody got time fa'dat.

anyway, I think you're just looking at things with a sunny disposition. which is fine, but it doesn't mean that ...

  On 8/4/2014 at 4:55 PM, messiaen said:

... everything isnt rapidly heading towards a huge shitstorm when the population doesnt stop rapidly increasing, and we keep on munching resources like there is an absolutely infinite amount of everything.

because I think that's true. I don't think the UK is fucked (although that population statistic is worrying), but I think that is generally true. shit is hugely unsustainable, there will be a painful correction and as a species we will have hell to pay. if we're lucky we will go on somehow but it will come at a huge cost. also, as a species, I don't think we've really improved our basic nature since civilisation. problems like war, poverty, crime, hatred - these are eternal, I fear. doesn't mean the struggle to fight those problems should ever stop, but it'll be an eternal fight, is what I'm saying.

but then again, if you're looking at all this with a sunny disposition, then you'll be happy even if the world is going to shit. so maybe you've got it right. both perspectives have their worth, they're not mutually exclusive.

  On 8/5/2014 at 8:00 AM, usagi said:

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 4:52 PM, BCM said:

why the fuck you having a go at me? I'm not even entering into your debate really, trying to get through to delet... on the scotland issue, i said I'm not bothered and good luck to them if they decide to leave. what i was trying to establish with my other argument is that the world and state of things today is generally ok and the human race is doing pretty well considering. people who say things like, the UK is on its way to hell etc are just plain wrong for a start and peddling a defeatist and fatalistic version of reality that really isn't true...everyone should relax, we're all ok. it's not perfect sure, but we're not living in hell or anything approaching it.

 

never mind delet, he just enjoys being as annoying as possible. railing against immigrants... ain't nobody got time fa'dat.

 

anyway, I think you're just looking at things with a sunny disposition. which is fine, but it doesn't mean that ...

 

  On 8/4/2014 at 4:55 PM, messiaen said:

... everything isnt rapidly heading towards a huge shitstorm when the population doesnt stop rapidly increasing, and we keep on munching resources like there is an absolutely infinite amount of everything.

 

because I think that's true. I don't think the UK is fucked (although that population statistic is worrying), but I think that is generally true. shit is hugely unsustainable, there will be a painful correction and as a species we will have hell to pay. if we're lucky we will go on somehow but it will come at a huge cost. also, as a species, I don't think we've really improved our basic nature since civilisation. problems like war, poverty, crime, hatred - these are eternal, I fear. doesn't mean the struggle to fight those problems should ever stop, but it'll be an eternal fight, is what I'm saying.

 

but then again, if you're looking at all this with a sunny disposition, then you'll be happy even if the world is going to shit. so maybe you've got it right. both perspectives have their worth, they're not mutually exclusive.

 

You know why the english population is rapidly increasing, it's mass immigration! It drives down wages, breaks infrastructural capacity, drives up crime and poverty. And we're doing the same in australia. It's an huge issue for developed western nations that we are having against our will large external populations deposited within our borders. I don't remember the referendum in australia saying 'would you like from about 2007 the net immigration to be 450'000 per year' (not to mention all that enter through the new work visas that have been created as well as the vast illegal immigration from south east asia). It has been completely undemocratic. And mate, we live on the edge of a desert, have now become a net importer of food and next time we have a two year drought are going to have to go back to water rationing. This effects everyone that lives here now and if they already live here i hold no ill will towards any of these people but the process must be ended. They cannot be reunited with their elderly grandparents, they cannot expect that there dozens of cousins can move here, the borders need to close now or we can forget being a first world nation any longer. On top of this the businesses that have been benefiting from the driven down wages and cheap labour need to be taxed so that we can finally play catch up on the infrastructure needed to deal with all the people that have come here in the past 15 years. Roads, schools, universities, new water pipes, national broadband network, new rail lines and on and on. Mass immigration here is imprudent and destroys a lifestyle that has taken 200 years to build, did not occur overnight. I certainly didn't sign up to have to in 20 years to look forward to no pension, overcrowded hospitals and a tiny high rise flat rather than the quarter acre block and financial security that we should have been able to expect.

well, I think we've found your insanity trigger. it's alright, everyone has one

I'm an immigrant to Australia. I hear some of what you're saying and I do think mass, unmanaged immigration can cause a lot of friction, especially culturally. but pinning all those social and economic problems on migrants is kind of ridiculous and irresponsible. you may think you're keeping it real by taking the un-politically correct view on the issue but I don't believe Australia has a real immigration problem per se. it just needs to be scaled appropriately so resources and infrastructure are not too heavily taxed. immigration is an economic portfolio after all, it's being driven by the government, in order to keep up with the global economy. this fact doesn't sink in for a lot of people. you're talking like it's being forced on you - if it is, it's coming from our elected officials (who also have no qualms turning it into a talking point to get votes from racist halfwits round election time).

the doctrine you're espousing of the nation as a fortress that must be defended/preserved is increasingly outmoded. the world just isn't like that anymore. immigration has to be managed carefully to allow as many people the rights and opportunities that everyone deserves, without stomping on anyone else's. that's the problem.

The more the merrier I say

not fussed either way. would be happy if england left the UK and the EU kicked out all of them, and i never had to go back to any of them.

good music though.

when cornwall becomes it's own country, then we'll start talking.

fuck the shitty island and all its fraudulent excuses for countries and a kingdom.

  On 8/5/2014 at 11:42 AM, usagi said:

pinning all those social and economic problems on migrants is kind of ridiculous and irresponsible.

 

To say that they don't matter pins you as a fantasist. If a family suddenly has triplets, this will stress the house hold budget, the father still has the same income he can't magic more qualifications or get a raise and at the same time he has to now deal with more stress in the same size home looking after and managing the extra mouths to feed, cloth, provide health care for. The exact same metric works for a nation as an household. It's not an esoteric thing that you can philosophically play however you want, it's a real thing, The infrastructure is stressed because there are more people using it. We have a budget that is stressed because we now need to teach 100's of thousands more students (without a greatly increased tax base because wages are being held down due to the fact that workers must compete for limited jobs). The budget is further stressed because we now have millions more people using the same hospitals, we may scramble to build more, but why should we have to suffer, this constant and ever widening lag period between the perceived benefit of an increased population and it's materialisation?

It's a fantasy propaganda line to think that 'international competitiveness' means anything in the context of 'needing' to constantly accelerate our growth of population. It's a tired lie that isn't tied to anything real in any way. China has been keeping it's population under control and has benefited by not having one of it's famines lately and has been prudently using it's economic boon to build up it's infrastructure. And you even made mention that population was a problem to another user, but for australia, the blinkers are on because you seem to have a vested interest (whatever that is) in keeping our borders wide open.

You say what you do because it is just a repetition of the editorial lines used by the press to sell the concept to the people. You feel safe and comfortable repeating things that have the veneer of respectability that these venues of thought deposit on the surface of these arguments. It doesn't discount unfortunately for you that these arguments are completely illogical and in no one's interest. Eventually the public will wake up to this as they are in england and the rest of europe. It will be hard though for us because most of our population will be immigrants that are sold on the idea of immigration and given the mess of a place that they would have come from, they won't understand what they are going to be undoing by pushing for even more immigration. And so the little green strip on the edge of the desert will turned into a megacity of haves and majorly have nots with linguistic ghettos interspersed throughout. But that's ok, because none of this had anything to do with immigration right.

lol @ fenton

A study from a university in london actually came up with a set of data suggesting that a legal immigrant moving to the uk was about 30 percent more likely to have a beneficial effect on the economy than a child born here in the last 30 years. il find it now.

blaming the uk problems on immigration is pretty ridiculous as far as i can see, UKIP have been upto it for a while now, but im yet to be presented with any decent, unbiased and detailed data on how its ruining the country.

  On 8/5/2014 at 12:08 PM, NorthernFusion said:

lol @ fenton

more like the canary in the coal mine, whilst you all breath the noxious gasses, drink the cool aid, whatever cliché for being ignorant of your own demise. heh.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1113/051113-migration-report

to me it just seems like a thinly veiled way of saying you dont really appreciate people who arent like you coming into your country. as if being born on a lump of land is some kind of achievement. patriots truely are the most stupid idiots in the world.

  On 8/5/2014 at 12:11 PM, messiaen said:

A study from a university in london actually came up with a set of data suggesting that a legal immigrant moving to the uk was about 30 percent more likely to have a beneficial effect on the economy than a child born here in the last 30 years. il find it now.

 

 

blaming the uk problems on immigration is pretty ridiculous as far as i can see, UKIP have been upto it for a while now, but im yet to be presented with any decent, unbiased and detailed data on how its ruining the country.

The problem with that study is that the immigrant is taking the job that would have been taken by the child born there in the last 30 years. So it's completely incorrect. And then when they start their shop or restaurant, they only tend to hire other immigrants, further shutting out the unemployed local youth from being able to have some economic activity sitting above his head which they could then add into their statistical chicanery.

dey took ooor jerbs

  On 8/5/2014 at 12:12 PM, messiaen said:

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1113/051113-migration-report

 

 

to me it just seems like a thinly veiled way of saying you dont really appreciate people who arent like you coming into your country. as if being born on a lump of land is some kind of achievement. patriots truely are the most stupid idiots in the world.

Calling me a racist is like the human shields argument the IDF uses to demonize the palestinians and i take fucking great offence at it mate. But i can't blame you, it's been banged into the heads of people for so long as the full stop for any discussion of the matter of immigration into western countries that to not to think this would be odd.

  On 8/5/2014 at 12:12 PM, messiaen said:

. patriots truely are the most stupid idiots in the world.

Says the guy that is voting for scots independence.

As i've stated, the intellectual disconnect around this issue is breathtaking. You'll get there though, the lot of you. [-; I have faith.