Bill Cosby is a big old rapist (on the loose)

  On 7/1/2021 at 6:59 PM, brian trageskin said:

lol, i'm being serious btw. i'm confident there's nothing remotely resembling irrefutable proof of jackson's guilt out there but i'm happy to be proven wrong. i really can't be bothered looking for info and i'm not the one claiming something happened, i don't have to do anything lol  

i only entered the conversation because no one in my country understands the difference between evidence and proof, which has allowed media and elected officials to claim "there is 0 evidence of [thing]" when actually there is much evidence of the thing. 

i appreciate that you conceded my point. 

  On 7/1/2021 at 7:07 PM, usagi said:

btw I did a round of jury duty recently so I'm a legal expert now. free consultations for WATMMers facing anything upto aggravated assault, PM me.

lol 

yeah i totally agree with you that not proven guilty doesn't equal innocent. my point is that people believe he's guilty when the evidence/proof out there isn't convincing at all afaik. or to put it differently, the level of proof or whatever it's called is very low. and where i come from, you're innocent until proven guilty. 

  On 7/1/2021 at 6:46 PM, brian trageskin said:

show me the proof. 

the proof is uh.. in the uh.. pudding. 

  On 7/1/2021 at 7:35 PM, ignatius said:

the proof is uh.. in the uh.. pudding. 

i believe mj used the term duck sauce. but i don't have proof of that.

  On 7/1/2021 at 7:27 PM, brian trageskin said:

lol 

yeah i totally agree with you that not proven guilty doesn't equal innocent. my point is that people believe he's guilty when the evidence/proof out there isn't convincing at all afaik. or to put it differently, the level of proof or whatever it's called is very low. and where i come from, you're innocent until proven guilty. 

yeah, well that's the rub. the importance of the default state of innocence is the reason the bar for establishing guilt is high, or at least non-trivial (though there are ways to pervert that, as happens all the time). personally I wouldn't go around saying he's guilty because I can't be sure, but my suspicions remain.

  On 7/1/2021 at 7:42 PM, usagi said:

yeah, well that's the rub. the importance of the default state of innocence is the reason the bar for establishing guilt is high, or at least non-trivial (though there are ways to pervert that, as happens all the time). personally I wouldn't go around saying he's guilty because I can't be sure, but my suspicions remain.

that's what i would prefer as well, btw. It's the schrodingers cat state. Both can be true. But it's better to remain impartial. Or consciously ignorant perhaps. Because you can't know. With a healthy amount of suspicion. Without being judgmental.

The schrodingers cat metaphor makes the most sense to me. But I'm not quite sure if that idea translates well to other people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoché

Guess that makes me a fan of Husserl.

  On 7/1/2021 at 6:59 PM, brian trageskin said:

lol, i'm being serious btw. i'm confident there's nothing remotely resembling irrefutable proof of jackson's guilt out there but i'm happy to be proven wrong. i really can't be bothered looking for info and i'm not the one claiming something happened, i don't have to do anything lol  

i couldn't sit through the neverland documentary bc it was so obviously a crude effort to convince viewers of jackson's guilt.

but, demanding irrefutable proof of child molestation is extremely cringe behavior. should the children have filmed this or something? the fuck are you even talking about dude?

  On 7/1/2021 at 8:02 PM, Alcofribas said:

i couldn't sit through the neverland documentary bc it was so obviously a crude effort to convince viewers of jackson's guilt.

but, demanding irrefutable proof of child molestation is extremely cringe behavior. should the children have filmed this or something? the fuck are you even talking about dude?

the real question is, why is everything "cringe" in your world? flol 

and yeah i ask no less than pov child porn to change my mind about whether mj is guilty or not  

  On 7/1/2021 at 8:09 PM, brian trageskin said:

the real question is, why is everything "cringe" in your world? flol 

and yeah i ask no less than pov child porn to change my mind about whether mj is guilty or not  

bc this is watmm and a lot of cringe is posted on a regular basis. 

repeatedly demanding “irrefutable evidence” of child rape on watmm dot com definitely falls into this category imo. thank you for your contribution m9

  On 7/1/2021 at 8:37 PM, Alcofribas said:

bc this is watmm and a lot of cringe is posted on a regular basis. 

repeatedly demanding “irrefutable evidence” of child rape on watmm dot com definitely falls into this category imo. thank you for your contribution m9

afaik, the thing with mj's case is that it's all testimonies, no hard evidence. should a person be punished simply based on testimonies? i personally need more than that, and so does the justice system apparently. 

also, we need a cringe subforum.

  On 7/1/2021 at 8:37 PM, Alcofribas said:

bc this is watmm and a lot of cringe is posted on a regular basis. 

repeatedly demanding “irrefutable evidence” of child rape on watmm dot com definitely falls into this category imo. thank you for your contribution m9

In all fairness, it goes both ways. Claiming someone did horrific stuff asks for some strong backup, imo. And I'd consider those claims  as unnecessary as asking for irrefutable evidence on a music forum.

Admittedly though, it's easy to make such claims in "casual" conversations. And to an extent, people should be free to do so. But once people go there (making strong claims of guilt), it's also fair to ask (demand!?) people to back-up those claims.

And yes, that brings plenty cringe. Completely agree. But again, it goes both ways. Don't think it's fair to just point the finger towards BT. 

i raped my dad last night. you should believe me because i'm telling you so and i sound convincing.

/dingformung

  On 7/1/2021 at 8:56 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

In all fairness, it goes both ways. Claiming someone did horrific stuff asks for some strong backup, imo. And I'd consider those claims  as unnecessary as asking for irrefutable evidence on a music forum.

Admittedly though, it's easy to make such claims in "casual" conversations. And to an extent, people should be free to do so. But once people go there (making strong claims of guilt), it's also fair to ask (demand!?) people to back-up those claims.

And yes, that brings plenty cringe. Completely agree. But again, it goes both ways. Don't think it's fair to just point the finger towards BT. 

Expand  

yeah I def agree that it’s valuable to push back against people’s claims about guilt with these kinds of allegations. But imo the I demand irrefutable evidence is just r-worded bc that almost doesn’t even exist in the real world. 

I’m not really into these kinds of celeb stories though. it doesn’t really mean anything to me to come to a decision about whether MJ did or didn’t molest kids. not really a topic I’m trying to get to the bottom of in my life tbh. 
 

***
 

i def agree with d-lo’s observation about the incoherence of progressive liberals on the topic of incarceration. they decry the system as being fundamentally unjust and systemically abusive but then celebrate its employment whenever it effects someone they don’t like. 
 

the example par excellence for me is when roxanne gay wrote an oped in the nyt in which she speculated that even though louis ck didn’t commit a crime, perhaps in cases like his jail would be an appropriate place for him to be forced to think about how what he did was wrong. this was written and published during the largest prisoner strike in us history. people like this have gotta go* imo
 

*to prison

shocked to see this is about Howard and not Hillman

  On 7/1/2021 at 9:12 PM, Alcofribas said:

yeah I def agree that it’s valuable to push back against people’s claims about guilt with these kinds of allegations. But imo the I demand irrefutable evidence is just r-worded bc that almost doesn’t even exist in the real world. 

yeah i probably said something i didn't really mean with this "irrefutable evidence" business. all i'm saying is there's nothing remotely resembling solid evidence/proof/whatever of guilt, and all i need is something indicating guilt that's more convincing than a bunch of testimonies from different people. testimonies by themselves are weak, as far as evidence goes. i just need a higher level of proof, that's all. 

  On 7/1/2021 at 6:54 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

Don't think I've said anything silly, tbh

The accusations go a little bit further than "we took some ludes and then we had sex", however.

  On 7/1/2021 at 9:12 PM, Alcofribas said:

people like this have gotta go* imo
 

*to prison

lol