2015 European Migrant Crisis

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

  On 9/14/2015 at 8:50 PM, miim said:

An economic migrant is a person who travels from one country or area to another in order to improve their standard of living.

 

Refugee is a person who is outside their home country because they have suffered (or feared) persecution on account of race, religion, nationality, or political opinion; because they are a member of a persecuted social category of persons; or because they are fleeing a war.

 

Google stuff, educate yourself and understand what's going on.

 

I was a child of economic migration in the early 80's and I understand the difference but how do you know the difference when you don't know where people are running from and how do you decide how needs what and when?

 

There's been a migrant camp in calais since the late 90's...

 

Luckily, there are people who actually study those kinds of things, so we are able to make decisions on how to allocate resources.

 

For example - in the current crisis - the lion's share of migrants were people from Syria and Afghanistan.

http://frontex.europa.eu/news/number-of-migrants-in-one-month-above-100-000-for-first-time-I9MlIo

The exception of course is Italy, where the vast majority make up people traveling from sub-Saharan Africa (places like Eritrea, Sudan, South Sudan, and Nigeria) where there is all kinds of unpleasantness taking place.

 

Are some of these migrants economic? Probably - the countries they are coming from are generally ruined with no economy to speak of. The vast majority entering Greece (over 80%) can expect to receive refugee protection - meaning they have been classified as refugees by the appropriate authorities. Could it be possible that some of them are even jihadis waiting to fulfill the darkest fears of the neocon/liberals? It could - but then, those people are slipping into the countries even without the cover story of being a refugee.

 

If we look at the data from the UNHCR, we can see that the numbers of registered Syrian refugees are remarkably balanced between men and women. So we know where they're coming from, we know what sorts of people are coming and what their needs might generally be. We also know what they're running from: Death Everywhere

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

nah, just pulled the first example from google.

Don't believe anything the Daily Heil writes.

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:28 PM, StephenG said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

nah, just pulled the first example from google.

 

lol u didn't even read your own link

What?

 

edit: to clarify, yes I read the article. What I meant is that I don't typically read the daily mail.

 

Hope that clears that up.

Edited September 15, 2015 by StephenG

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:28 PM, StephenG said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

nah, just pulled the first example from google.

 

 

this right here is one of the biggest problems we face right now, the warping of reality by people who have no idea what they are talking about. People may think this is harmless but because the internet is how we get the news these days behavior like this just makes it harder to get the truth. It just shows bias and agendas, creepy ones.

You're absolutely right.

The problem is that people define their own truth, and search out the information that matches what they perceive to be the truth. You could have ten thousand articles stating clearly and factually what is going on versus one incoherent mess of a rant about terrorist migrants, and if the terrorist migrants is what they want to believe, then they have found their Truth.

 

"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." Etcetera. (Quoting the novel Alamut, not Assassins Creed btw.)

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:16 AM, Bechuga said:

The problem is that people define their own truth, and search out the information that matches what they perceive to be the truth. You could have ten thousand articles stating clearly and factually what is going on versus one incoherent mess of a rant about terrorist migrants, and if the terrorist migrants is what they want to believe, then they have found their Truth.

 

"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted." Etcetera. (Quoting the novel Alamut, not Assassins Creed btw.)

Confirmation bias?

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

Now we find out that it was the child of the persons trafficker driving the boat (for ten grand per family), not of an invader. Of course that wouldn't have been just so for the sympathy mongers, first we find out that they moved the body for a better photo, now this. castles made of sand and you're all eating it up like it's a 3 star dinner. Hungary (which is the first to restart border control in europe) has stated, that greece needs to control it's borders, but the troika has so fucked their economy and is now controlling how they spend their money, whilst the EU provides them no aid to deal with this crap, ala turn it back, arrest the enablers like the dick who was driving his boat too fast, probably so he could go back to turkey to make more money.

 

I was watching the french news the other day and they went to turkey near where these people set off and there was for some strange reason a one desk french consulate in a fucking boat shop, that sold rubber dinghies. The woman couldn't really explain her purpose there, but it's pretty clear what was going on.

u guys reading Charlie Hebdo right now? shit's hilarious, lots of cartoons of drowning toddlers and clever jokes about religon

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, delet... said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

i refuse to watch this because i can't believe it's real

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

u guys reading Charlie Hebdo right now? shit's hilarious, lots of cartoons of drowning toddlers and clever jokes about religon

yeah, i'm only reading it because how wrong the press were in sanctifying them after the attack because they're actually kinda assholes and i want to confirm that again.

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

 

Hey man, the mail is an excellent source of unbiased news for the right-thinking person.

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, delet... said:

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

Now we find out that it was the child of the persons trafficker driving the boat (for ten grand per family), not of an invader. Of course that wouldn't have been just so for the sympathy mongers, first we find out that they moved the body for a better photo, now this. castles made of sand and you're all eating it up like it's a 3 star dinner. Hungary (which is the first to restart border control in europe) has stated, that greece needs to control it's borders, but the troika has so fucked their economy and is now controlling how they spend their money, whilst the EU provides them no aid to deal with this crap, ala turn it back, arrest the enablers like the dick who was driving his boat too fast, probably so he could go back to turkey to make more money.

 

I was watching the french news the other day and they went to turkey near where these people set off and there was for some strange reason a one desk french consulate in a fucking boat shop, that sold rubber dinghies. The woman couldn't really explain her purpose there, but it's pretty clear what was going on.

So because the boy's father allegedly was a trafficker we shouldn't care that people are drowning by the thousands, and the child's life is worthless or something? I don't see why it matters. Invader? Edited September 15, 2015 by Gocab

  On 9/15/2015 at 6:53 AM, hello spiral said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 10:21 PM, Bechuga said:

 

  On 9/14/2015 at 9:51 PM, StephenG said:

lol

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2958517/The-Mediterranean-sea-chaos-Gaddafi-s-chilling-prophecy-interview-ISIS-threatens-send-500-000-migrants-Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html

 

lol you're reading the daily mail

 

 

Hey man, the mail is an excellent source of unbiased news for the right-thinking person.

 

 

You know Musafa too?!

flol

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:00 AM, Gocab said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, delet... said:

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

Now we find out that it was the child of the persons trafficker driving the boat (for ten grand per family), not of an invader. Of course that wouldn't have been just so for the sympathy mongers, first we find out that they moved the body for a better photo, now this. castles made of sand and you're all eating it up like it's a 3 star dinner. Hungary (which is the first to restart border control in europe) has stated, that greece needs to control it's borders, but the troika has so fucked their economy and is now controlling how they spend their money, whilst the EU provides them no aid to deal with this crap, ala turn it back, arrest the enablers like the dick who was driving his boat too fast, probably so he could go back to turkey to make more money.

 

I was watching the french news the other day and they went to turkey near where these people set off and there was for some strange reason a one desk french consulate in a fucking boat shop, that sold rubber dinghies. The woman couldn't really explain her purpose there, but it's pretty clear what was going on.

So because the boy's father allegedly was a trafficker we shouldn't care that people are drowning by the thousands, and the child's life is worthless or something? I don't see why it matters. Invader?

 

 

 

We should care that people are in no danger in turkey or libya etc, and who have thousands of dollars to pay for trafficking from the place that they already were, encouraged by groups handing out information booklets on how to get in to europe and what government agencies to contact when they get there and so on. And many many many of these tens of thousands are not even from syria, they are indians and pakistainis and sub saharan africans and central asians from the caucasus.and so forth who are moving from somewhere where they are already safe, and have enough financial stability and community support, so that they can pay 'ten thousand dollars' to do this boat ride to enter europe to get on the gravy train that they are told is on the other side of all this.

 

And all you see is the smallest sliver of this issue, 'think of the chilllldren', It's all a big scam on europeans man, to fuck over europe and the integrity of it's nations and cultures, by forcing down it's throat a new world order approved multiculturalism. So shouldn't you be angry that the media lied to you about this, and suspicious from now about anything they tell you about this whole crisis. Surely i shouldn't have to justify my post man.

No. I welcome them. We're all, like, people of this world man, and right now our bros and sisters up in Syria are getting slaughtered.

 

Free hug?

Edited September 15, 2015 by Gocab

  On 9/15/2015 at 6:19 AM, eugene said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, John Ehrlichman said:

u guys reading Charlie Hebdo right now? shit's hilarious, lots of cartoons of drowning toddlers and clever jokes about religon

yeah, i'm only reading it because how wrong the press were in sanctifying them after the attack because they're actually kinda assholes and i want to confirm that again.

 

 

seconded.

for your information ehrlichman, charlie hebdo is the worst kind of pseudo-subversive, plain islamophobic neocon propaganda. let's not even talk about their anti-christian obsession since anti-christianity is almost a french tradition.

 

also thanks chen for providing material to think about.

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:23 AM, delet... said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:00 AM, Gocab said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, delet... said:

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

Now we find out that it was the child of the persons trafficker driving the boat (for ten grand per family), not of an invader. Of course that wouldn't have been just so for the sympathy mongers, first we find out that they moved the body for a better photo, now this. castles made of sand and you're all eating it up like it's a 3 star dinner. Hungary (which is the first to restart border control in europe) has stated, that greece needs to control it's borders, but the troika has so fucked their economy and is now controlling how they spend their money, whilst the EU provides them no aid to deal with this crap, ala turn it back, arrest the enablers like the dick who was driving his boat too fast, probably so he could go back to turkey to make more money.

 

I was watching the french news the other day and they went to turkey near where these people set off and there was for some strange reason a one desk french consulate in a fucking boat shop, that sold rubber dinghies. The woman couldn't really explain her purpose there, but it's pretty clear what was going on.

So because the boy's father allegedly was a trafficker we shouldn't care that people are drowning by the thousands, and the child's life is worthless or something? I don't see why it matters. Invader?

 

 

 

We should care that people are in no danger in turkey or libya etc, and who have thousands of dollars to pay for trafficking from the place that they already were, encouraged by groups handing out information booklets on how to get in to europe and what government agencies to contact when they get there and so on. And many many many of these tens of thousands are not even from syria, they are indians and pakistainis and sub saharan africans and central asians from the caucasus.and so forth who are moving from somewhere where they are already safe, and have enough financial stability and community support, so that they can pay 'ten thousand dollars' to do this boat ride to enter europe to get on the gravy train that they are told is on the other side of all this.

 

And all you see is the smallest sliver of this issue, 'think of the chilllldren', It's all a big scam on europeans man, to fuck over europe and the integrity of it's nations and cultures, by forcing down it's throat a new world order approved multiculturalism. So shouldn't you be angry that the media lied to you about this, and suspicious from now about anything they tell you about this whole crisis. Surely i shouldn't have to justify my post man.

 

 

Are you fucking kidding me? People who go the human smuggling route sell everything they have, and often go into insane debt. This requires them to do all kinds of fucked up things for their creditors in order to pay back the debt. The Syrians fleeing are doing it because their country is absolutely fucked (and you will note that the vast majority of Syrian refugees a) get refugee status and b) are in neighbouring countries.

As to your notion that there are so many Indians and Pakistanis, look at the goddamned data. The vast majority of the people going to Greece are Syrians or Afghanis. Overall people from Syria, Afghanistan and Eritrea make up the largest portion at 58%. Then you have people from other locales that are experiencing violence and persecution. They're moving from Turkey because Erdogan is waging a war on the Kurds. The Russians are pushing troops into Syria in vast numbers to prop up Assad. They're moving from South Sudan, Somalia and other sub-Saharan countries because of violence and other shitty security situations.

 

I'm not thinking of the children, I'm thinking of all the people who have to put their lives at risk because of the fucked up situations from which they are fleeing. The population of the EU (so that's not including countries like Switzerland, Norway, where refugees and other migrants can establish themselves) is just over 508 million people. Of those 508 million, as of 2011, 31.4 million (or 6%) were born outside of the EU (what the breakdown of that 6% is, I don't know, but this undoubtedly includes people who are not muslims). Let's say the EU takes all 19.5 million estimated refugees - they won't but let's say they do. That's 10 percent of the total population that is not born within the EU - and again, not all of those are Muslims. Hardly a goddamned take over, or a fucking over of the "cultural integrity" of European nations. This fear of migrants and immigration is risible nonsense. Add to the fact that immigration is largely recognized to have economic benefits (barring the widely cited and terribly flawed Heritage Foundation study), and you have an economic argument for this migration as well as a moral argument. Oh and as an aside - interviews by the UNHCR found that of the male Syrian refugees 46% had at least a secondary education, and another 40% had a university education. So this is not a bunch of illiterate savages.

 

I don't know why I'm wasting my time though - elsewhere you've indicated that you think the Abbot government's response to the refugee situation is the correct one (ie pay money to corrupt governments in nations that are far less equipped to settle refugees) - so I'm sure some good old facts won't get in the way of your populist bloviating.

  On 9/15/2015 at 10:58 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:23 AM, delet... said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 7:00 AM, Gocab said:

 

  On 9/15/2015 at 3:39 AM, delet... said:

https://youtu.be/u3c7ak896Dg

 

Now we find out that it was the child of the persons trafficker driving the boat (for ten grand per family), not of an invader. Of course that wouldn't have been just so for the sympathy mongers, first we find out that they moved the body for a better photo, now this. castles made of sand and you're all eating it up like it's a 3 star dinner. Hungary (which is the first to restart border control in europe) has stated, that greece needs to control it's borders, but the troika has so fucked their economy and is now controlling how they spend their money, whilst the EU provides them no aid to deal with this crap, ala turn it back, arrest the enablers like the dick who was driving his boat too fast, probably so he could go back to turkey to make more money.

 

I was watching the french news the other day and they went to turkey near where these people set off and there was for some strange reason a one desk french consulate in a fucking boat shop, that sold rubber dinghies. The woman couldn't really explain her purpose there, but it's pretty clear what was going on.

So because the boy's father allegedly was a trafficker we shouldn't care that people are drowning by the thousands, and the child's life is worthless or something? I don't see why it matters. Invader?

 

 

 

We should care that people are in no danger in turkey or libya etc, and who have thousands of dollars to pay for trafficking from the place that they already were, encouraged by groups handing out information booklets on how to get in to europe and what government agencies to contact when they get there and so on. And many many many of these tens of thousands are not even from syria, they are indians and pakistainis and sub saharan africans and central asians from the caucasus.and so forth who are moving from somewhere where they are already safe, and have enough financial stability and community support, so that they can pay 'ten thousand dollars' to do this boat ride to enter europe to get on the gravy train that they are told is on the other side of all this.

 

And all you see is the smallest sliver of this issue, 'think of the chilllldren', It's all a big scam on europeans man, to fuck over europe and the integrity of it's nations and cultures, by forcing down it's throat a new world order approved multiculturalism. So shouldn't you be angry that the media lied to you about this, and suspicious from now about anything they tell you about this whole crisis. Surely i shouldn't have to justify my post man.

 

 

Are you fucking kidding me? People who go the human smuggling route sell everything they have, and often go into insane debt. This requires them to do all kinds of fucked up things for their creditors in order to pay back the debt. The Syrians fleeing are doing it because their country is absolutely fucked (and you will note that the vast majority of Syrian refugees a) get refugee status and b) are in neighbouring countries.

As to your notion that there are so many Indians and Pakistanis, look at the goddamned data. The vast majority of the people going to Greece are Syrians or Afghanis. Overall people from Syria, Afghanistan and Eritrea make up the largest portion at 58%. Then you have people from other locales that are experiencing violence and persecution. They're moving from Turkey because Erdogan is waging a war on the Kurds. The Russians are pushing troops into Syria in vast numbers to prop up Assad. They're moving from South Sudan, Somalia and other sub-Saharan countries because of violence and other shitty security situations.

 

I'm not thinking of the children, I'm thinking of all the people who have to put their lives at risk because of the fucked up situations from which they are fleeing. The population of the EU (so that's not including countries like Switzerland, Norway, where refugees and other migrants can establish themselves) is just over 508 million people. Of those 508 million, as of 2011, 31.4 million (or 6%) were born outside of the EU (what the breakdown of that 6% is, I don't know, but this undoubtedly includes people who are not muslims). Let's say the EU takes all 19.5 million estimated refugees - they won't but let's say they do. That's 10 percent of the total population that is not born within the EU - and again, not all of those are Muslims. Hardly a goddamned take over, or a fucking over of the "cultural integrity" of European nations. This fear of migrants and immigration is risible nonsense. Add to the fact that immigration is largely recognized to have economic benefits (barring the widely cited and terribly flawed Heritage Foundation study), and you have an economic argument for this migration as well as a moral argument. Oh and as an aside - interviews by the UNHCR found that of the male Syrian refugees 46% had at least a secondary education, and another 40% had a university education. So this is not a bunch of illiterate savages.

 

I don't know why I'm wasting my time though - elsewhere you've indicated that you think the Abbot government's response to the refugee situation is the correct one (ie pay money to corrupt governments in nations that are far less equipped to settle refugees) - so I'm sure some good old facts won't get in the way of your populist bloviating.

 

 

the economic argument seems vague to me. more taxpayers/consumers/workers/producers equals economic benefit for society?

many people argue that migration mostly benefits big business, because cheap labor exerts downward pressure on wages.

Someone remind me again why a shitty person like delet is a mod around here?