Canadian election 2015

lol most polite political debate ever

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:37 AM, popiax said:

lol most polite political debate ever

Canada

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:23 AM, StephenG said:

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:23 AM, StephenG said:

Actually, I read the issues you posted and I don't know much about all of them, specifically the wooing of racists bit. As for wannabe world superpower... We are a world superpower (insofar as our GDP is concerned, not so much militarily but then again we don't necessarily need to be) so I don't understand that comment.

 

Can you elaborate on the Niqab issue? My take on the niqab is probably ignorant, please fill in the blanks. I personally don't believe wearing the niqab is in line with Canadian values, though I realize I'm conflating societal values and religion in a way... The niqab is worn because exposing intimate body parts is considered awrah... So women are often blamed for awrah because men seeing their face or any other body part creates lust. Instead of men just controlling their ridiculous tendency to rape in these countries (there are statistics to back this up) the women are forced to cover themselves. They are placing the blame on the women for creating lust when really the men just need to control themselves. I don't think that's a value or behavior we should condone.

 

Is my understanding of the niqab completely wrong?

 

Well, by world-power I meant Harper's clear affection for military stuff, be it in Libya, Syria et al. Sure, there's some dangerous nutters mucking up that part of the world that need dealing with, but as a Brit I'm super wary of being dragged into a bullshit war a la Iraq (which Harper wanted to join in with). And the overall impression I get from Iraqis/Syrians/Palestinians that I know and have spoken to, is that while the various Middle Eastern dictators are twats, they are much preferable to the anarchy that seems to follow foreign intervention. (As a businessman, which would you prefer? To see your corner shop struggle under Saddam/Assad/Gadaffi's insane bureaucracy, or to see your corner shop literally blown up by rebels?) But that's just me lol

As for niqab: in some gobshite parts of the world, it is forced on people. But not in Canada - here it's a voluntary choice. No one is forcing my sisters-in-law to wear it, nor hijab, and no one should force them to do otherwise. As for Canadian values or whatever, IMO the whole concept of value systems should be left well, well, well outside the jurisdiction of government. Your sense of identity shouldn't be dependent on state diktat!

P.S. squarepusher

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:01 AM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:23 AM, StephenG said:

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:23 AM, StephenG said:

Actually, I read the issues you posted and I don't know much about all of them, specifically the wooing of racists bit. As for wannabe world superpower... We are a world superpower (insofar as our GDP is concerned, not so much militarily but then again we don't necessarily need to be) so I don't understand that comment.

 

Can you elaborate on the Niqab issue? My take on the niqab is probably ignorant, please fill in the blanks. I personally don't believe wearing the niqab is in line with Canadian values, though I realize I'm conflating societal values and religion in a way... The niqab is worn because exposing intimate body parts is considered awrah... So women are often blamed for awrah because men seeing their face or any other body part creates lust. Instead of men just controlling their ridiculous tendency to rape in these countries (there are statistics to back this up) the women are forced to cover themselves. They are placing the blame on the women for creating lust when really the men just need to control themselves. I don't think that's a value or behavior we should condone.

 

Is my understanding of the niqab completely wrong?

 

 

But not in Canada - here it's a voluntary choice. No one is forcing my sisters-in-law to wear it, nor hijab, and no one should force them to do otherwise.

 

 

The perception among most that are outsiders viewing this is that, although women in our country are doing it voluntarily, that they're doing it voluntarily in a way that.... well to put it bluntly, that they're drinking the kool-aid.

Whether or not it's voluntary, subscribing to a concept that forces women to cover themselves because men can't control their own lust... Do you see what I'm getting at?

I'm not saying I think in this way, I'm just saying that this is how it has been described to me from people against it. They're saying whether the women agree to it or not, it's still subjugation by religion....

However you do have some good points regarding foreign intervention. That said, I disagree that "values" should be left out of politics. Statutory law in part dictates what is and isn't acceptable. You separate values from government and you're opening the floodgates for whoever to do whatever. We value not raping children. Government has created criminal code and statutory law against it. = Good. I don't think you can separate the two out.

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:06 AM, StephenG said:

 

The perception among most that are outsiders viewing this is that, although women in our country are doing it voluntarily, that they're doing it voluntarily in a way that.... well to put it bluntly, that they're drinking the kool-aid.

 

Whether or not it's voluntary, subscribing to a concept that forces women to cover themselves because men can't control their own lust... Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

Yes, although it's wrong, because I know these people... but wateva

Good! Wouldn't you agree that the govt has no reason to interfere where people are doing victimless stuff? Like, for example, wearing slightly different clothing... If your national values need the government to back them up, then fuck 'em IMO

(wtf's with the kiddie rape? I'm on about getting the govt out of cultural issues, not letting people off from committing physical harm to people)

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:23 AM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:06 AM, StephenG said:

 

The perception among most that are outsiders viewing this is that, although women in our country are doing it voluntarily, that they're doing it voluntarily in a way that.... well to put it bluntly, that they're drinking the kool-aid.

 

Whether or not it's voluntary, subscribing to a concept that forces women to cover themselves because men can't control their own lust... Do you see what I'm getting at?

 

Yes, although it's wrong, because I know these people... but wateva

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:06 AM, StephenG said:

You separate values from government and you're opening the floodgates for whoever to do whatever.

Good! Wouldn't you agree that the govt has no reason to interfere where people are doing victimless stuff? Like, for example, wearing slightly different clothing... If your national values need the government to back them up, then fuck 'em IMO

 

(wtf's with the kiddie rape? I'm on about getting the govt out of cultural issues, not letting people off from committing physical harm to people)

 

Whether it's victim-less or not is debatable. To be clear, I could give two shits about what a woman somewhere is wearing. It doesn't affect me directly. My only concern is whether or not a person is forced to wear this or that.

The kiddie rape comment is just an extreme example to illustrate why you cannot separate values from government. And the issue of clothing isn't a simple question of cultural values, it's about freedom and power of choice.

Again, just to clarify I don't care what anyone wears I'm just playing the devils advocate that's all. Telling you what I read/have heard.

Anyways, I don't want to get stuck on this particular issue because to me it's a non issue and shouldn't even have been politicized.

Lets move on =)

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:28 AM, StephenG said:

 

Whether it's victim-less or not is debatable. To be clear, I could give two shits about what a woman somewhere is wearing. It doesn't affect me directly.

 

 

The kiddie rape comment is just an extreme example to illustrate why you cannot separate values from government. And the issue of clothing isn't a simple question of cultural values, it's about freedom and power of choice.

 

Well in the case of my relatives it is victimless, which is why Harper and his shit-stirring about citizenship ceremonies makes them nervous. And that's likely true for a lot of us non-"old stock" canadians. IMO gaining citizenship shouldn't be any different to getting a driving licence - it's just a flippin' document - seriously, why does it bother so many Tories that some people might want to dress a certain way while applying for a glorified travel permit?

And yes I get the point that one's values can technically include basically everything, but no one is talking about allowing cultural practices that entail physical harm to other people. That stuff is already illegal (mostly lol).

PS big hugz <3

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:45 AM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:28 AM, StephenG said:

 

Whether it's victim-less or not is debatable. To be clear, I could give two shits about what a woman somewhere is wearing. It doesn't affect me directly.

 

 

The kiddie rape comment is just an extreme example to illustrate why you cannot separate values from government. And the issue of clothing isn't a simple question of cultural values, it's about freedom and power of choice.

 

Well in the case of my relatives it is victimless, which is why Harper and his shit-stirring about citizenship ceremonies makes them nervous. And that's likely true for a lot of us non-"old stock" canadians. IMO gaining citizenship shouldn't be any different to getting a driving licence - it's just a flippin' document - seriously, why does it bother so many Tories that some people might want to dress a certain way while applying for a glorified travel permit?

 

And yes I get the point that one's values can technically include basically everything, but no one is talking about allowing cultural practices that entail physical harm to other people. That stuff is already illegal (mostly lol).

 

PS big hugz <3

 

Agreed.

I wonder how much of the shit stirring is actually harpo and his gov't though, and not the media just slanting things a certain way? I believe the Niqab (and general dress issues such as the wearing of Turbans in the RCMP) issue has been before the courts for quite some time, I always gathered the media was just picking up on it to make it a controversial talking point during this election time. IE sensationalism.

edit: I'm out though it's dinner time, I'll check back tomorrow! =)

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:47 AM, StephenG said:

 

I wonder how much of the shit stirring is actually harpo and his gov't though, and not the media just slanting things a certain way? I believe the Niqab (and general dress issues such as the wearing of Turbans in the RCMP) issue has been before the courts for quite some time, I always gathered the media was just picking up on it to make it a controversial talking point during this election time. IE sensationalism.

 

It's right there in the Plan at Tory HQ:

A re-elected Conservative Government will reintroduce and pass the Oath of Citizenship Act requiring citizenship candidates to be seen and heard when reciting the Oath in community with others, to confirm their commitment as new citizens to Canada's laws and values.

I admit my views on nationalities etc are prob a bit unorthodox, I just think governments should be providers of services, not defenders of certain cultural traits. But it stems from wanting people to be able to make their own choices (in this case, cultural). But next time any government does shit like this, think of the person who - despite not doing any harm to anyone - is suddenly told that they have to change their behaviour to avoid upsetting people's (very possibly bigoted) sensibilities

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:47 AM, StephenG said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 12:37 AM, popiax said:

lol most polite political debate ever

Canada

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:59 AM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:47 AM, StephenG said:

 

I wonder how much of the shit stirring is actually harpo and his gov't though, and not the media just slanting things a certain way? I believe the Niqab (and general dress issues such as the wearing of Turbans in the RCMP) issue has been before the courts for quite some time, I always gathered the media was just picking up on it to make it a controversial talking point during this election time. IE sensationalism.

 

It's right there in the Plan at Tory HQ:

 

A re-elected Conservative Government will reintroduce and pass the

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:59 AM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 3:47 AM, StephenG said:

 

I wonder how much of the shit stirring is actually harpo and his gov't though, and not the media just slanting things a certain way? I believe the Niqab (and general dress issues such as the wearing of Turbans in the RCMP) issue has been before the courts for quite some time, I always gathered the media was just picking up on it to make it a controversial talking point during this election time. IE sensationalism.

 

It's right there in the Plan at Tory HQ:

 

A re-elected Conservative Government will reintroduce and pass the Oath of Citizenship Act requiring citizenship candidates to be seen and heard when reciting the Oath in community with others, to confirm their commitment as new citizens to Canada's laws and values.

 

I admit my views on nationalities etc are prob a bit unorthodox, I just think governments should be providers of services, not defenders of certain cultural traits. But it stems from wanting people to be able to make their own choices (in this case, cultural). But next time any government does shit like this, think of the person who - despite not doing any harm to anyone - is suddenly told that they have to change their behaviour to avoid upsetting people's (very possibly bigoted) sensibilities

 

 

Oath of Citizenship Act requiring citizenship candidates to be seen and heard when reciting the Oath in community with others, to confirm their commitment as new citizens to Canada's laws and values.

 

I admit my views on nationalities etc are prob a bit unorthodox, I just think governments should be providers of services, not defenders of certain cultural traits. But it stems from wanting people to be able to make their own choices (in this case, cultural). But next time any government does shit like this, think of the person who - despite not doing any harm to anyone - is suddenly told that they have to change their behaviour to avoid upsetting people's (very possibly bigoted) sensibilities

 

Aside from the "bigoted" aspect of what you've said here, what do you see wrong with your statement?

Let us say that a person is told to change their behavior to avoid upsetting people's (non bigoted) sensibilities. What then?

Good luck Canada

  On 10/18/2015 at 6:18 AM, StephenG said:

 

Aside from the "bigoted" aspect of what you've said here, what do you see wrong with your statement?

Let us say that a person is told to change their behavior to avoid upsetting people's (non bigoted) sensibilities. What then?

 

lawl i was drunk, didn't quite come out right

However I still see the Tories as bigoted because of this. Yes, they have a good economic track record, but why sully it with divisive gobshite like this? If you think it's totally kosher for the govt to restrict people from voluntarily dressing modestly, I wanna hear the justification!

Whenever I press this on anyone else, all I ever get in response is rants about them mooslims takin' over (which tends to digress into a general rant against immigrants, before I get told that I'm ok because I'm the Right Kind of Immigrant). And that's why I consider it wooing of racists - cos in my experience so far it's always racists that support it.

  On 10/19/2015 at 2:10 PM, Tricone RC said:

 

  On 10/18/2015 at 6:18 AM, StephenG said:

 

Aside from the "bigoted" aspect of what you've said here, what do you see wrong with your statement?

Let us say that a person is told to change their behavior to avoid upsetting people's (non bigoted) sensibilities. What then?

 

 

Whenever I press this on anyone else, all I ever get in response is rants about them mooslims takin' over (which tends to digress into a general rant against immigrants, before I get told that I'm ok because I'm the Right Kind of Immigrant).

 

Lets just ship all these people to the deep south in the US bottom of the ocean where they belong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seAlfDLxeps

Maritimes always ends up mostly liberal.

Same results in the 2011 election.

  On 10/20/2015 at 3:16 AM, Philip Glass said:

WOOOOOOOOOO!!

will this effect the TPP or TPIP signing in canada at all, or is trudeau on board with the same thing ?

As a victim of having been born in the us, I am jelly of canadia

  On 10/20/2015 at 4:20 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/20/2015 at 3:16 AM, Philip Glass said:

 

WOOOOOOOOOO!!

 

booooo

I can't stand Trudeau, but am relieved that Harper's no longer in office.

  On 10/20/2015 at 4:34 AM, Zephyr_Nova said:

I can't stand Trudeau, but am relieved that Harper's no longer in office.

It's not over yet. Half the polls in ontario aren't even counted, and BC is historically conservative.