Live Track Production / Recording

At the moment most of my music is made live. Normally revolving around loops and patterns that are already created. I've gone from software side to purely hardware recording and although I find it more fun it brings a lot of different challenges.

I find that my tracks lack variety, can lack drive and are normally too long. Not a great combination...I have improved over time as I get used to making changes quickly and timing things better but I have issues with writing multiple melodies for my SH-101 (obviously only sequences things one at a time...) and hence the issue with variety.

I get a feeling that a lot of this is down to just practicing more, making and finishing tracks but would also like some advice if there is any :D How do you make and record your tracks? Show off your knowledge/skills as much as you like as any information is appreciated!

With recording I guess you solely record the audio result of the hardware knob tweakage, dunno if you could also record the note-events / changed parameters in a hardware solution instead of a daw? Otherwise that could be a nice option to revisit the good parts / create variations later on?

Also do you record the master out or individual tracks? With the latter you have more control editing in changes or processing the sound further.

I hardly record jams, but wish to do hybrid compositions more often. Record each track to .wav and arrange the parts with most potential into a final result.

  On 11/18/2015 at 7:48 PM, Djeroek said:

With recording I guess you solely record the audio result of the hardware knob tweakage, dunno if you could also record the note-events / changed parameters in a hardware solution instead of a daw? Otherwise that could be a nice option to revisit the good parts / create variations later on?

 

Also do you record the master out or individual tracks? With the latter you have more control editing in changes or processing the sound further.

 

I hardly record jams, but wish to do hybrid compositions more often. Record each track to .wav and arrange the parts with most potential into a final result.

Usually I sync stuff up and then put it through a mixer into a singular output that goes into my tape recorder. I don't use my computer at all at the moment. I like to make melodies, drum loops quickly and put something together quickly. It's then added to Ableton where I try and cut out hiss and then it's done :) To be honest I don't really know how people record individual parts manually. I guess it takes a lot of pre planning ?

I suppose there is a line between live jamming and composing on a computer in terms of variety. I'll just have to keep working at it!

This is how I like to work, too, and what I've been doing to break out of the "endless jam" rut is to do an endless jam with fewer instruments, then go back, edit it down and overdub on it.

Back i 2013 I did a really short album as a one-off project that was specifically an exercise to get more disciplined about having structure and shorter tracks when I did things direct to stereo, and the limiting factor there was that I had a box of c-20 cassettes and had to make the whole album fit onto one. It definitely helped a lot,a although I'm drifting back the other way lately. A big thing was to accept that for this project I wasn't going to be able to do every pattern change, track mute and knob tweak live like I had been doing, so I arranged the basic structure in song mode on the MPC2kxl, converted the whole thing to a single pattern and then overdubbed longer MIDI tracks on that and did some editing to make the transitions feel a little more live. Went back and recorded it with all of the parameter tweaking and mix done in a single pass. Wouldn't be very exciting for a live performance but for making tight, short tracks that still have a live to stereo vibe it worked really well. It helped that the whole thing was deliberately lo-fi so the mix wasn't as critical as it could have been (in fact, I didn't even use a proper mixerm just a line mixer with volume, pan and one aux send for reverb).

I guess what I'm saying is that it's kind of a matter of having your workflow and your goals meet halfway.

  On 11/18/2015 at 9:56 PM, RSP said:

This is how I like to work, too, and what I've been doing to break out of the "endless jam" rut is to do an endless jam with fewer instruments, then go back, edit it down and overdub on it.

 

Back i 2013 I did a really short album as a one-off project that was specifically an exercise to get more disciplined about having structure and shorter tracks when I did things direct to stereo, and the limiting factor there was that I had a box of c-20 cassettes and had to make the whole album fit onto one. It definitely helped a lot,a although I'm drifting back the other way lately. A big thing was to accept that for this project I wasn't going to be able to do every pattern change, track mute and knob tweak live like I had been doing, so I arranged the basic structure in song mode on the MPC2kxl, converted the whole thing to a single pattern and then overdubbed longer MIDI tracks on that and did some editing to make the transitions feel a little more live. Went back and recorded it with all of the parameter tweaking and mix done in a single pass. Wouldn't be very exciting for a live performance but for making tight, short tracks that still have a live to stereo vibe it worked really well. It helped that the whole thing was deliberately lo-fi so the mix wasn't as critical as it could have been (in fact, I didn't even use a proper mixerm just a line mixer with volume, pan and one aux send for reverb).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's kind of a matter of having your workflow and your goals meet halfway.

Yeah, I kind of decided to do similar over the last few days. 1 drum machine and 1 or 2 synths. See what I can do. Makes it easier to tweak but harder to keep interesting for the listener... (well for me at least). I like the idea about limitations in terms of instruments and time on tape. I'll definitely try to put an album down on tape with as many tracks as possible. I have used an Octatrack in the past that has been useful for 'song mode' but I haven't been able to sync it up with my other (old or 'vintage') gear. I should probably look into how I can incorporate that properly instead of giving up on it as an option.

Agreed on the workflow and goals. I think I just need to keep learning, practicing and see what happens.

  On 11/18/2015 at 9:56 PM, RSP said:

This is how I like to work

http://vimeo.com/138032050

  On 11/18/2015 at 11:18 PM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/18/2015 at 9:56 PM, RSP said:

This is how I like to work, too, and what I've been doing to break out of the "endless jam" rut is to do an endless jam with fewer instruments, then go back, edit it down and overdub on it.

 

Back i 2013 I did a really short album as a one-off project that was specifically an exercise to get more disciplined about having structure and shorter tracks when I did things direct to stereo, and the limiting factor there was that I had a box of c-20 cassettes and had to make the whole album fit onto one. It definitely helped a lot,a although I'm drifting back the other way lately. A big thing was to accept that for this project I wasn't going to be able to do every pattern change, track mute and knob tweak live like I had been doing, so I arranged the basic structure in song mode on the MPC2kxl, converted the whole thing to a single pattern and then overdubbed longer MIDI tracks on that and did some editing to make the transitions feel a little more live. Went back and recorded it with all of the parameter tweaking and mix done in a single pass. Wouldn't be very exciting for a live performance but for making tight, short tracks that still have a live to stereo vibe it worked really well. It helped that the whole thing was deliberately lo-fi so the mix wasn't as critical as it could have been (in fact, I didn't even use a proper mixerm just a line mixer with volume, pan and one aux send for reverb).

 

I guess what I'm saying is that it's kind of a matter of having your workflow and your goals meet halfway.

 

Yeah, I kind of decided to do similar over the last few days. 1 drum machine and 1 or 2 synths. See what I can do. Makes it easier to tweak but harder to keep interesting for the listener... (well for me at least). I like the idea about limitations in terms of instruments and time on tape. I'll definitely try to put an album down on tape with as many tracks as possible. I have used an Octatrack in the past that has been useful for 'song mode' but I haven't been able to sync it up with my other (old or 'vintage') gear. I should probably look into how I can incorporate that properly instead of giving up on it as an option.

 

Agreed on the workflow and goals. I think I just need to keep learning, practicing and see what happens.

 

Just got the new firmware for the Beatstep Pro and it's still got some bugs but it's finally starting to get good. Pattern chaining and a few other new things that will help to keep from getting stuck in endless one-pattern noodling (except when I want to). So that's good.

Another thing I did last week kind of by accident almost was to put together a track using all non-sequenced overdubs (mostly processed guitar) where on every track I overdubbed I tried at least one new technique or gear combination I'd never used before (even the one straight guitar track has a reverb pedal I'd never used before on it). It's kind of aimless and there's a ground loop hum on one track that I didn't notice until I started mixing it but it was a good way to break out of habits and try something different, and I actually like how it sounds despite the rough bits.

  On 11/19/2015 at 7:07 AM, RSP said:

 

Just got the new firmware for the Beatstep Pro and it's still got some bugs but it's finally starting to get good. Pattern chaining and a few other new things that will help to keep from getting stuck in endless one-pattern noodling (except when I want to). So that's good.

 

Another thing I did last week kind of by accident almost was to put together a track using all non-sequenced overdubs (mostly processed guitar) where on every track I overdubbed I tried at least one new technique or gear combination I'd never used before (even the one straight guitar track has a reverb pedal I'd never used before on it). It's kind of aimless and there's a ground loop hum on one track that I didn't notice until I started mixing it but it was a good way to break out of habits and try something different, and I actually like how it sounds despite the rough bits.

 

I've seen loads of people with a beatstep but I didn't take it seriously as I thought it looked a bit shit... Just looked into it and it could be exactly what I was after. Need to learn more about the gear I've got 1st though as there could be a way around that I haven't found yet. Your link to soundcloud didn't work...

With hardware i prefer to mix everything and record it as is. Usually it is one pattern noodling lol.

  On 11/19/2015 at 10:52 AM, telefunken said:

With hardware i prefer to mix everything and record it as is. Usually it is one pattern noodling lol.

Yeah same. I guess I'm just looking for something that will help add more variety. Might look into the korg sequencer as a cheaper option to the beatstep.

Ah I need to sort the new beatstep OS. It's really fun for drum CVs but still not CV'd synths properly yet

I record all live jams too but end up heavily editing then I have an idea where the track needs to go and can come up with other ideas that work. Make those, jam them, edit, add. Then build an arrangement then overdub the incidentals it needs to work as a song/finished track.

Hardware jamming is too much fun to not do it any other way (for me) My mind would turn to mush looking at a blank DAW template wondering where to start.

  On 11/19/2015 at 3:16 PM, Chesney said:

Ah I need to sort the new beatstep OS. It's really fun for drum CVs but still not CV'd synths properly yet

 

I record all live jams too but end up heavily editing then I have an idea where the track needs to go and can come up with other ideas that work. Make those, jam them, edit, add. Then build an arrangement then overdub the incidentals it needs to work as a song/finished track.

Hardware jamming is too much fun to not do it any other way (for me) My mind would turn to mush looking at a blank DAW template wondering where to start.

Fair play man. I don't think I'm motivated enough to record separate takes and arrange properly so until then I'll have to make do with average tunes :)

Mine are average too ;)

  On 11/19/2015 at 3:16 PM, Chesney said:

Ah I need to sort the new beatstep OS. It's really fun for drum CVs but still not CV'd synths properly yet

 

When you do, let me know if it drops the gate output on the first step of your sequences when you start playing, because that's been happening to mine since at least the previous firmware (I didn't notice it before that and don't want to mess with downgrading just to check) and it's fine for tweaking stuff while it runs but anything where you need to go from stopped to a full arrangement is kind of broken. I'm still happy with it for what it is though, and they seem to be going in the right direction with the firmware finally. I wouldn't want it to be my only sequencer but it's a really good second sequencer for the price. It'll hold me through until I have the time and money to build a Midibox SEQ v4, and I'll probably hang on to it even after that.

  On 11/19/2015 at 12:50 PM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/19/2015 at 10:52 AM, telefunken said:

With hardware i prefer to mix everything and record it as is. Usually it is one pattern noodling lol.

 

Yeah same. I guess I'm just looking for something that will help add more variety. Might look into the korg sequencer as a cheaper option to the beatstep.

 

If you are OK using MIDI, you should take a look at the Roland EF303 too. You get a pretty solid 16 step MIDI note/CC sequencer plus some crappy (in a useful way - I got mine to use as a sequencer and I actually mostly use it for step sequenced reverb) late 90s DJ mixer effects and the original Boss VT-1 algorithm with all of the controls intact, and the eBay price was comparable to that Korg last time I checked. It's much bulkier though, but also pretty well made. I'm a big fan.

It also has easily the worst TB303 emulation I've ever heard, but when you push the pitch and resonance up as high as possible it can actually make some useful sounds.

tend to record live demos through a mixer and into a H4N - if we like the demo the idea is to go back and stem each instrument out again for mixing, but what usually happens is we fall too far in love with a demo and pull our hair out trying to recreate moments found in them

then there's the next step in trying to mix a not to well recorded .wav into a pumpin' song :/

however, recently picked up a Tascam US-16x08 - which will hopefully solve our problem - we can happily jam out demos, while having all the stems (well most of them) to play with later....the only problem is we wont be able to record live Sends to our effects, but we can just put the audio through them later if needs be

  On 11/19/2015 at 5:33 PM, RSP said:

 

  On 11/19/2015 at 12:50 PM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/19/2015 at 10:52 AM, telefunken said:

With hardware i prefer to mix everything and record it as is. Usually it is one pattern noodling lol.

 

Yeah same. I guess I'm just looking for something that will help add more variety. Might look into the korg sequencer as a cheaper option to the beatstep.

 

 

 

If you are OK using MIDI, you should take a look at the Roland EF303 too. You get a pretty solid 16 step MIDI note/CC sequencer plus some crappy (in a useful way - I got mine to use as a sequencer and I actually mostly use it for step sequenced reverb) late 90s DJ mixer effects and the original Boss VT-1 algorithm with all of the controls intact, and the eBay price was comparable to that Korg last time I checked. It's much bulkier though, but also pretty well made. I'm a big fan.

 

Cheers for the recommendation dude. You know loads about old/lesser known gear. Will check out ebay etc now.

  On 11/19/2015 at 7:31 PM, TRiP said:

tend to record live demos through a mixer and into a H4N - if we like the demo the idea is to go back and stem each instrument out again for mixing, but what usually happens is we fall too far in love with a demo and pull our hair out trying to recreate moments found in them

 

then there's the next step in trying to mix a not to well recorded .wav into a pumpin' song :/

 

however, recently picked up a Tascam US-16x08 - which will hopefully solve our problem - we can happily jam out demos, while having all the stems (well most of them) to play with later....the only problem is we wont be able to record live Sends to our effects, but we can just put the audio through them later if needs be

Yeah, mixing isn't really a priority for me. I have some half decent knowledge on it but I'd rather focus on learning how to make decent tunes before being able to mix average ones nicely (not that I'm saying that's what you do). That tascam looks decent, sounds like your work flow is going to get a lot better. I think I'm going to go down a route of 1 sequencer for my SH-101 and just buy more synths :)

If you happen to have a Tape Op subscription, the interview with Gareth Jones in the new issue has a ton of stuff in it that's really relevant to this thread.

  Quote

 

I've always enjoyed the technology. In fact, I have to be very firm with myself not to let the technology run away. I try to encourage our younger colleagues to realize that we've got enough equipment. Lack of equipment was always a creative bonus, actually. I try to preach the message now, like many people from our generation do, that actually it's not about the equipment. I am a technophile for sure, but it's so important to tell stories. I try to seamlessly go into a world where I'm helping, in my professional work and my uncommissioned work, where I'm just trying to tell a story with the equipment that I've got. When The Haxan Cloak can mix Björk's record [Vulnicura] in Albelton Live on a laptop, we have to focus on doing the best we can with the tools that are available to us.

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:13 AM, RSP said:

 

If you happen to have a Tape Op subscription, the interview with Gareth Jones in the new issue has a ton of stuff in it that's really relevant to this thread.

 

  Quote

 

I've always enjoyed the technology. In fact, I have to be very firm with myself not to let the technology run away. I try to encourage our younger colleagues to realize that we've got enough equipment. Lack of equipment was always a creative bonus, actually. I try to preach the message now, like many people from our generation do, that actually it's not about the equipment. I am a technophile for sure, but it's so important to tell stories. I try to seamlessly go into a world where I'm helping, in my professional work and my uncommissioned work, where I'm just trying to tell a story with the equipment that I've got. When The Haxan Cloak can mix Björk's record [Vulnicura] in Albelton Live on a laptop, we have to focus on doing the best we can with the tools that are available to us.

 

I totally agree with that quote above and acknowledge I'm a total hypocrite... I just enjoy pissing about with different sounds but don't know any of my synths well enough.

Signed up to Tape Op to check out that interview now. Any other decent reads appreciated :D

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:34 AM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:13 AM, RSP said:

 

If you happen to have a Tape Op subscription, the interview with Gareth Jones in the new issue has a ton of stuff in it that's really relevant to this thread.

 

  Quote

 

I've always enjoyed the technology. In fact, I have to be very firm with myself not to let the technology run away. I try to encourage our younger colleagues to realize that we've got enough equipment. Lack of equipment was always a creative bonus, actually. I try to preach the message now, like many people from our generation do, that actually it's not about the equipment. I am a technophile for sure, but it's so important to tell stories. I try to seamlessly go into a world where I'm helping, in my professional work and my uncommissioned work, where I'm just trying to tell a story with the equipment that I've got. When The Haxan Cloak can mix Björk's record [Vulnicura] in Albelton Live on a laptop, we have to focus on doing the best we can with the tools that are available to us.

 

 

I totally agree with that quote above and acknowledge I'm a total hypocrite... I just enjoy pissing about with different sounds but don't know any of my synths well enough.

 

Signed up to Tape Op to check out that interview now. Any other decent reads appreciated :D

 

Oh me too, I am fully guilty of getting new gear if I'm feeling in a rut (when I can afford to). I'm not super strict about it, but a few years back I made a kind of informal resolution that whenever I felt like I needed a new piece of gear, if it was at all within my ability I would put the money toward materials and tools and learn to build it instead, so instead of just consuming I would be learning. It's worked out pretty well, although there's still plenty of stuff I want that I wouldn't have a chance in hell of bring able to make myself it's smaller than it was before.

If you've never poked around in the old Sound On Sound "Synth Secrets" series of articles, it's worth it.

  On 11/20/2015 at 5:35 AM, RSP said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:34 AM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:13 AM, RSP said:

 

If you happen to have a Tape Op subscription, the interview with Gareth Jones in the new issue has a ton of stuff in it that's really relevant to this thread.

 

  Quote

 

I've always enjoyed the technology. In fact, I have to be very firm with myself not to let the technology run away. I try to encourage our younger colleagues to realize that we've got enough equipment. Lack of equipment was always a creative bonus, actually. I try to preach the message now, like many people from our generation do, that actually it's not about the equipment. I am a technophile for sure, but it's so important to tell stories. I try to seamlessly go into a world where I'm helping, in my professional work and my uncommissioned work, where I'm just trying to tell a story with the equipment that I've got. When The Haxan Cloak can mix Björk's record [Vulnicura] in Albelton Live on a laptop, we have to focus on doing the best we can with the tools that are available to us.

 

 

I totally agree with that quote above and acknowledge I'm a total hypocrite... I just enjoy pissing about with different sounds but don't know any of my synths well enough.

 

Signed up to Tape Op to check out that interview now. Any other decent reads appreciated :D

 

 

 

Oh me too, I am fully guilty of getting new gear if I'm feeling in a rut (when I can afford to). I'm not super strict about it, but a few years back I made a kind of informal resolution that whenever I felt like I needed a new piece of gear, if it was at all within my ability I would put the money toward materials and tools and learn to build it instead, so instead of just consuming I would be learning. It's worked out pretty well, although there's still plenty of stuff I want that I wouldn't have a chance in hell of bring able to make myself it's smaller than it was before.

 

If you've never poked around in the old Sound On Sound "Synth Secrets" series of articles, it's worth it.

 

Yeah, that's a decent idea. That's why I'm interested in modular/FM synthesis. Something to learn beyond the basics. Weirdly I have had a similar thought. I've bought way to much gear over the last year and initially I bought a few 'classic' synths to attain specific sounds because I didn't know what else to make. On the way I've found/developed a sound that I like that doesn't require these old synths so I'm going to sell them.

I've tried a few times to read that series but find it a little dry. I'll try again :D

  On 11/20/2015 at 11:59 AM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 5:35 AM, RSP said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:34 AM, flacid said:

 

  On 11/20/2015 at 12:13 AM, RSP said:

 

If you happen to have a Tape Op subscription, the interview with Gareth Jones in the new issue has a ton of stuff in it that's really relevant to this thread.

 

  Quote

 

I've always enjoyed the technology. In fact, I have to be very firm with myself not to let the technology run away. I try to encourage our younger colleagues to realize that we've got enough equipment. Lack of equipment was always a creative bonus, actually. I try to preach the message now, like many people from our generation do, that actually it's not about the equipment. I am a technophile for sure, but it's so important to tell stories. I try to seamlessly go into a world where I'm helping, in my professional work and my uncommissioned work, where I'm just trying to tell a story with the equipment that I've got. When The Haxan Cloak can mix Björk's record [Vulnicura] in Albelton Live on a laptop, we have to focus on doing the best we can with the tools that are available to us.

 

 

I totally agree with that quote above and acknowledge I'm a total hypocrite... I just enjoy pissing about with different sounds but don't know any of my synths well enough.

 

Signed up to Tape Op to check out that interview now. Any other decent reads appreciated :D

 

 

 

Oh me too, I am fully guilty of getting new gear if I'm feeling in a rut (when I can afford to). I'm not super strict about it, but a few years back I made a kind of informal resolution that whenever I felt like I needed a new piece of gear, if it was at all within my ability I would put the money toward materials and tools and learn to build it instead, so instead of just consuming I would be learning. It's worked out pretty well, although there's still plenty of stuff I want that I wouldn't have a chance in hell of bring able to make myself it's smaller than it was before.

 

If you've never poked around in the old Sound On Sound "Synth Secrets" series of articles, it's worth it.

 

 

 

Yeah, that's a decent idea. That's why I'm interested in modular/FM synthesis. Something to learn beyond the basics. Weirdly I have had a similar thought. I've bought way to much gear over the last year and initially I bought a few 'classic' synths to attain specific sounds because I didn't know what else to make. On the way I've found/developed a sound that I like that doesn't require these old synths so I'm going to sell them.

 

I've tried a few times to read that series but find it a little dry. I'll try again :D

 

Yeah, I did that in the winter of 2013/14 when I was making like 3-4 times what I usually make (not nearly as impressive as it sounds, believe me) because of some freelance work. I've kept most of it because I was concentrating on mid 90s digital rack gear that isn't really possible to DIY and doesn't take up much space, but since then I've been mostly building. It also slows everything down and forces me to spend more time with what I have even while I'm working on something else.

The SOS series is very dry, it's not really fun reading but good reference.

What sort of stuff do you make? Instruments, effects or algo's etc?