Free will or "free will"?

All three.

That idea of seeing a brain as like a city is a pretty neat one. So is the economy the city? No it's just a part of it. Where is the economy located in the city? It isn't in a particular location. If you take away the economy, what happens to the city? Detroit brain.

Fucknows

What does it even mean to have, or lack, free will? In what way does it qualitively affect our experience? Are we even capable of distinguishing which one it is?

The strongest argument I've heard against free will is the delay between brainwave reaction and the experience of that reaction, but I don't find it particularly convincing because it ascribes an undue priority on time versus subjective experience. Ultimately it appears that I have some semblance of autonomy (which I suppose free will is?) and that's good enough for me.

that just means that what you perceive as now is actually fraction of sec in the past but perception of time can warp well beyond just that. is that really used as argument against free will? has nothing to do with it.

I think the Libet thing, is that the brain has made the choice before you are consciously aware of making that choice.

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:34 PM, azatoth said:

I think the Libet thing, is that the brain has made the choice before you are consciously aware of making that choice.

no matter what the brain decided, your mind has the final word.

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:39 PM, Ayya Khema said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:34 PM, azatoth said:

I think the Libet thing, is that the brain has made the choice before you are consciously aware of making that choice.

no matter what the brain decided, your mind has the final word.

 

Huh?

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

well, i would say that 'the brain' is the physical counterpart of 'the mind'

and that 'the mind' is the phenomenological expression of 'the brain'

"the brain"--it's just your brain and that's how your brain works. you make decisions that don't even bubble up to conscious thought but it's still you.

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

kk so the mind is the brain?

so when you meditate and feel that you are calm, its your brain thats relaxing?

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:50 PM, boo said:

"the brain"--it's just your brain and that's how your brain works. you make decisions that don't even bubble up to conscious thought but it's still you.

why would the brain be you.

the body is breathing right now automatically without any need for ''you'' to do anything.

the body is in most part indepedant and prone to the laws of physics and decay. but your absolutely responsible every second on how you think and how you use your mind. every second you decide how to use the mind.

see the city analogy again,..yo

how you use the mind??? but the mind is you, and your brain is what makes it happen.

edit: btw i agree with you,this is just semantic bs

  On 1/22/2016 at 7:24 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 7:13 PM, boo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 6:19 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

and usually the "solution" is some really boring conceptual analysis of the terms being used

True but

 

We have a tendency to use very complex concepts and theories to explain one simple element of something that itself is actually really complex,but just ignore the actual complexity. I do the opposite tho cause me stupid... It's like when you're a kid knowing that Santa doesn't exist and it's just your parents but you still get presents, Christmas still goes ahead despite your original concept of it being a lie, so who gives a fuck.. and active imagination/delusion make the thought of Santa just as exciting? This is really reductive but the average person's idea of what free will even is, doesn't get smashed to pieces by saying everything predetermined or whatev because predetermined might as well be meaningless at that point, real isn't real, etc. just move the goal post over the ball and call it a goal,why not..

 

There's an area of the brain that is comes in to action immediately after an unconsciously triggered emotion is felt, like fear, at that point you are gathering all counter-evidence to that emotion being required at that moment.. this shit is important because you have what feels like direct control over it,it doesn't matter how it came to be .. the fact that it feels like free will is enough to influence how your brain (you) progresses.

 

 

to further stress my point: what do people ITT consider "you"

simply your conscious experience?

your body and your subconscious mind?

 

this is the boring conceptual analysis i was talking about

but it's hugely important for determining if "you" have "free will"?

 

the idea of you, as a self within the body and mind is created mainly by the thinking process.

when you stop the thinking process, the you idea basically isnt there for that moment. The observed merge with the observer and all that exist is the observed (what you are observing).

the idea of free will as at the underlying belief the belief of a self inside ourselves.

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:57 PM, boo said:

how you use the mind??? but the mind is you, and your brain is what makes it happen.

 

edit: btw i agree with you,this is just semantic bs

more like the mind use the brain to accomplish a action. its the mind that tells you to walk. if your mind dont tell to walk, you wont walk.

Im not sure if I understand what you mean by the mind is you. I belief that the sense of self comes indeed fomr the fact that we can, with the use of the brain, hear, smell, touche, see, and then look at the body and say: this is me.

but it doesnt mean that the body or the mind is you. The body is constantly changing and will die one day and mind is absolutely impermanent: it changes constantly.

Dharma killed my free will.

I wasn't really talking about senses at all,although obv they're essential in forming mind--to a point,then it can freestyle,no doubt. you aren't static,you are constantly redefined but that's still you,"you" doesn't imply "one state" anyway. dayum,whatev.. what you are saying is from my point of view, faith-based which is absolutely fine and important. edit: you is the result of all of it combined,imo, or a separate free will you thing that attached to all that other stuff just for shits n giggles,could be .. why not? but that's just a belief that has been reinforced over the years from lack of self-awareness

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:45 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

well, i would say that 'the brain' is the physical counterpart of 'the mind'

and that 'the mind' is the phenomenological expression of 'the brain'

 

Sounds about right. The mind is not something that exists beyond the brain, is what I am getting at.

  On 1/22/2016 at 11:19 PM, azatoth said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:45 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

well, i would say that 'the brain' is the physical counterpart of 'the mind'

and that 'the mind' is the phenomenological expression of 'the brain'

 

Sounds about right. The mind is not something that exists beyond the brain, is what I am getting at.

 

I see. so consciousness is only there because of the brain/body? That consciousness needs a brain/body otherwise consciousness is impossible?

I have difficulty not seeing a clear distinction between mind and body. as if they cannot be the same. its like the mind that decides what to use: the eyes, or the smell, or the ears consciousness, or mental consciousness.

the brain is there and allow you to be able to perceive but its your mind that tells you what to perceive.

  On 1/22/2016 at 11:19 PM, azatoth said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:45 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

well, i would say that 'the brain' is the physical counterpart of 'the mind'

and that 'the mind' is the phenomenological expression of 'the brain'

 

Sounds about right. The mind is not something that exists beyond the brain, is what I am getting at.

 

yeah

it's not a coincidence that if you damage certain parts of the brain

you can predict how it will affect the mind

(any 'mind is independent of the body/brain' adherents need to account for this fact)

if you experience brain damage you probably just created that with your awful lacking mindfulness, rather than high speed impakt or whatever. it's all a manifestation of the mind! :S

edit: nah, ye modern day requires a: /s

  On 1/22/2016 at 11:25 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 11:19 PM, azatoth said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:45 PM, LimpyLoo said:

 

  On 1/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, azatoth said:

I don't see a reason to make a distinction between mind and brain.

well, i would say that 'the brain' is the physical counterpart of 'the mind'

and that 'the mind' is the phenomenological expression of 'the brain'

 

Sounds about right. The mind is not something that exists beyond the brain, is what I am getting at.

 

 

yeah

it's not a coincidence that if you damage certain parts of the brain

you can predict how it will affect the mind

 

 

(any 'mind is independent of the body/brain' adherents need to account for this fact)

 

I think we should define what we mean by consciousness/mind : eye, smell, tongue, touch, ear consciousness and the mental consciousness (mental). this what constitues the mind?

so if the brain is damaged and it affects the mental faculty of memory, two person with that problem do not have necessarly the same mind.

I also tend to believe people that have been clinically dead and have reported having seen what the doctors were doing to them to try to reanimate them.

consciousness/mind isn't the senses, it's what is what you do with those senses, with your brain--it's not the input,the input doesn't even resemble what you create. feed ego with deluded idea of superior mindfulness but Ayya maybe offer your brain up for experiments to prove that how one superior being could edit: maintain mindfulnesss with brain damage......

  On 1/22/2016 at 11:49 PM, boo said:

consciousness/mind isn't the senses, it's what is what you do with those senses, with your brain--it's not the input,the input doesn't even resemble what you create. feed ego with deluded idea of superior mindfulness but Ayya maybe offer your brain up for experiments to prove that how one superior being could edit: maintain mindfulnesss with brain damage......

consciousness is also the 5 senses. and what ever else can go into the mental consciousness (thoughts, idea, memory).

im not sure I follow you about maintaining mindfulness with brain damage or what you mean by input do not ressemble what you create. do you mean that what the eye see is not what really is?

Do you mind?