Swans' Michael Gira accused of rape by singer Larkin Grimm

  On 3/1/2016 at 11:40 PM, LimpyLoo said:

That's because you're a fucking idiot, Delet

 

Whose asshole did you lick to become a mod, btw?

Interesting defense mechanism, the forum was turning on you so you attacked one of the least popular members (no offense delte..)

  On 3/1/2016 at 7:09 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 4:54 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 12:46 AM, Zeffolia said:

Any time men's rights are brought up here the person making the statements is instantly attacked personally and called a misogynist even though nothing they've said it misogynistic. It's ridiculous honestly lol

not really. i think you'll find people are engaging with you in a way that isn't entirely jumping to that conclusion from the get go. you just always edge towards that the more you try to justify yourself...to quote you earlier...coincidence? i think not.

 

for me it's as simple as this.. it's a weird priority to be so damn interested in the issues that affect men as if this is somehow the best use of one's time. and if they claim to not be sexist or whatever, i would like to see them stick up for issues that affect women, too. and then you can claim to be concerned about humanity / people as a whole. however they are just as one sided as the extreme feminists. as if adopting the complete opposite extreme stance from something that is already extreme is somehow going to fix the problem...it's the unwavering dedication to a single one dimensional ideology that is a problem in the first place.

 

 

 

You act as if the world is idealistic and we can do every single thing in our power to protect women's rights without ever harming others. Fact is we can't. Step too far in one direction and you start infringing upon the rights of men in ways that are otherwise not acceptable within society, but for some reason if it's in the name of protecting women then people are not only accepting of it but zealously defend it, attacking those who don't as sexist

 

if only we went the route of bonobos instead of the alpha male chimp maniac!!!

(men have failed the world, its time to give women the power bonobo style)

  On 3/2/2016 at 1:04 AM, Deer said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 11:40 PM, LimpyLoo said:

That's because you're a fucking idiot, Delet

 

Whose asshole did you lick to become a mod, btw?

Interesting defense mechanism, the forum was turning on you so you attacked one of the least popular members (no offense delte..)

Yes that's exactly what it is, Deer

Very perceptive

  On 3/2/2016 at 1:04 AM, Deer said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 11:40 PM, LimpyLoo said:

That's because you're a fucking idiot, Delet

 

Whose asshole did you lick to become a mod, btw?

 

Interesting defense mechanism, the forum was turning on you so you attacked one of the least popular members (no offense delte..)

 

it's all good little buddy ...

Dammit Delet, you're making me like you again

With all these good-natured replies...

^ delet is about to be offered a blowjob for the first time in his life

I offered Kokimo a blowjob a couple years ago

(Still waiting for a reply)

  On 3/1/2016 at 7:03 PM, azatoth said:

What men's rights are being infringed upon exactly? I am not quite clear on it. pls halp me to know if i am being oppressed.

Put this way it certainly sounds funny, because even though rape accusations are a bit scary (American dude), on a day to day basis I don't really think my rights are all that in jeopardy.

So I had a waltz on over to the wiki to take a look

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_rights_movement#Issues

I don't even want to comment on it really but i guess these are things MRActivists care about.

Warren Farrell is a men's rights activist? Seeing her name a lot in there

Here's some comic relief for this page:

http://imgur.com/V70mnTY

  On 3/1/2016 at 7:03 PM, azatoth said:

What men's rights are being infringed upon exactly? I am not quite clear on it. pls halp me to know if i am being oppressed.

• The legal right to be free from genital mutilation
• The legal right to be free from being drafted into war
• The legal right to vote granted at birth (it's not granted at birth it's dependent upon registering with the selective services since if you don't you're imprisoned and prisoners can't vote)
• The legal right to abdicate parental responsibility in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. Women have this right via abortion
• The right to equal parental rights in custody battles, removed via the assumption that the mother is always the best potential caregiver even when evidence points otherwise

There are some others I'm not remembering. And these are just the literal legal rights men don't have. Many other social rights are denied as well such as:

• Longer average jail sentences for the same crimes as women due to gynosympathy in juries and judges
• The right to have their rapes taken seriously instead of being laughed away. This happens far more to men than women, if men even report it at all.

The list can go on and on, then there are general social injustices not really related to "rights" so to speak but rather just general unfairnesses typically related to social expectations and how they manifest themselves in human (male) behavior, career options, and emotional coping mechanisms, such as:

• The vast majority of homeless people are men
• The vast majority of suicides are male
• The vast majority of workplace deaths are male
• The vast majority of workplace injuries are male
• The vast majority of victims of violent crime of all types are men

And when I say vast majority I mean it's 90%+ in most of those cases, not little 45% and 55% splits.

But yeah none of this matters right? A big issue is that men are expected by society to act macho and masculine and deny any injustices they face in life to avoid being portrayed as weak. So they don't complain and often actively insult men who do complain to make themselves look like better potential mates, even subconsciously on message boards like this.

If women faced the problems I listed above you can bet your life you'd be listing them as evidence of female oppression. But since males face it and it's part of the status quo you instead insult people personally who even point these issues out. It's truly atrocious and I'm getting sick of it.

O wow, this thread has become the Islamic State of WATMM. Stinking dead bodies everywhere. Eww

  On 3/2/2016 at 7:13 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 7:03 PM, azatoth said:

What men's rights are being infringed upon exactly? I am not quite clear on it. pls halp me to know if i am being oppressed.

But yeah none of this matters right? A big issue is that men are expected by society to act macho and masculine and deny any injustices they face in life to avoid being portrayed as weak. So they don't complain and often actively insult men who do complain to make themselves look like better potential mates, even subconsciously on message boards like this.

 

If women faced the problems I listed above you can bet your life you'd be listing them as evidence of female oppression. But since males face it and it's part of the status quo you instead insult people personally who even point these issues out. It's truly atrocious and I'm getting sick of it.

 

There is certainly some legit grievances, but the gist of these issues stem from hegemonic masculinity which are issues that feminism also deals with. In my mind many of these could be solved by deconstructing this hegemony. That's why this polarization between feminists and these so called MRA's is misguided, it's again this us vs. them mentality that serves no one in the end.

Also humans are scum.

  On 3/2/2016 at 8:36 AM, azatoth said:

 

  On 3/2/2016 at 7:13 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 3/1/2016 at 7:03 PM, azatoth said:

What men's rights are being infringed upon exactly? I am not quite clear on it. pls halp me to know if i am being oppressed.

 

• The legal right to be free from genital mutilation
• The legal right to be free from being drafted into war
• The legal right to vote granted at birth (it's not granted at birth it's dependent upon registering with the selective services since if you don't you're imprisoned and prisoners can't vote)
• The legal right to abdicate parental responsibility in the event of an unplanned pregnancy. Women have this right via abortion
• The right to equal parental rights in custody battles, removed via the assumption that the mother is always the best potential caregiver even when evidence points otherwise

There are some others I'm not remembering. And these are just the literal legal rights men don't have. Many other social rights are denied as well such as:

• Longer average jail sentences for the same crimes as women due to gynosympathy in juries and judges
• The right to have their rapes taken seriously instead of being laughed away. This happens far more to men than women, if men even report it at all.

The list can go on and on, then there are general social injustices not really related to "rights" so to speak but rather just general unfairnesses typically related to social expectations and how they manifest themselves in human (male) behavior, career options, and emotional coping mechanisms, such as:

• The vast majority of homeless people are men
• The vast majority of suicides are male
• The vast majority of workplace deaths are male
• The vast majority of workplace injuries are male
• The vast majority of victims of violent crime of all types are men

And when I say vast majority I mean it's 90%+ in most of those cases, not little 45% and 55% splits.

 

But yeah none of this matters right? A big issue is that men are expected by society to act macho and masculine and deny any injustices they face in life to avoid being portrayed as weak. So they don't complain and often actively insult men who do complain to make themselves look like better potential mates, even subconsciously on message boards like this.

 

If women faced the problems I listed above you can bet your life you'd be listing them as evidence of female oppression. But since males face it and it's part of the status quo you instead insult people personally who even point these issues out. It's truly atrocious and I'm getting sick of it.

 

 

There is certainly some legit grievances, but the gist of these issues stem from hegemonic masculinity which are issues that feminism also deals with. In my mind many of these could be solved by deconstructing this hegemony. That's why this polarization between feminists and these so called MRA's is misguided, it's again this us vs. them mentality that serves no one in the end.

 

It's necessary because feminists aren't actually interested in these issues.

They only bring up the whole "we are trying to deconstruct patriarchy and those are effects of patriarchy therefore yeah we do care about men's issues" as a defensive response when confronted with claims that they don't care about men's issues. They don't actively discuss or try to solve or assuage the effects of these supposed symptoms of patriarchy whatsoever, but they do try to assuage the supposed effects of patriarchy which directly affect women. But not those that directly affect men.

It's a cop-out and the fact that these issues are significantly more serious than the issues feminists tend to complain about (with respect to western society) says even more about the situation and calls into question the narrative of patriarchy altogether. If society were truly built on a system meant to benefit men at the expense of women, wouldn't the primary negative side effects of patriarchy be hurting women, not men?

I think it's more likely that this is all a result of subconscious gynosympathy and the fact that men prove their worth through doing things in society and women already have worth by their mere existence. This results in a situation of one-upmanship by men and one method of doing that is denying one's own problems and putting the problems of others above those of oneself. Which results in what we see here: people not giving a fuck about that massive list I just posted and giving it only a moment's thought, then pushing it to the side and saying "well if you'd just listen to feminists we could fix those by removing patriarchy and hegemonic masculinity", a massive cop-out if I've ever heard one since no, these are NOT just effects of patriarchy

Whatever

Here's a pretty good article dismantling patriarchy theory. Written by some fucking 17 year kid, I mean come on even a teenager can see this bullshit for what it is: bullshit

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-worlds-fastest-patriarchy-disproof-2/

  On 3/2/2016 at 8:55 AM, Zeffolia said:

Written by some fucking 17 year kid, I mean come on even a teenager can see this bullshit for what it is: bullshit

  On 3/2/2016 at 9:08 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 3/2/2016 at 8:55 AM, Zeffolia said:

Here's a pretty good article dismantling patriarchy theory. Written by some fucking 17 year kid, I mean come on even a teenager can see this bullshit for what it is: bullshit

 

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-worlds-fastest-patriarchy-disproof-2/

>adviceformen.com

 

>17 year old kid

 

there's some solid journalism i tells ya

 

Okay lol I pointed out the age too

How about refuting some of the actual points made. If the source is such shit you should be able to tear it to fucking shreds, point by point. Oh wait, you can't.

(Actually I'll admit the part after verdict #3 is a bit shaky, but ignore it and don't fallaciously poison the well)

And it's not "adviceformen" it's "avoiceformen" the most prominent MRA discussion and news website. Woh, such informed, such aware of topic you actively attack /s

WATMM

  On 3/2/2016 at 9:08 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 3/2/2016 at 8:55 AM, Zeffolia said:

Here's a pretty good article dismantling patriarchy theory. Written by some fucking 17 year kid, I mean come on even a teenager can see this bullshit for what it is: bullshit

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-worlds-fastest-patriarchy-disproof-2/

>adviceformen.com

>17 year old kid

there's some solid journalism i tells ya

 

check yo'self b4 u WRECK urself BOIIIIIIIIIII !!!!!!!!!

Great posting, Deer!

I think some of you who act all defensively are faced with an uncomfortable truth, one you never could accept because of years of subtle and not-so-subtle programming. hence you lash out in anger, mocking or outright denial.

  On 3/2/2016 at 9:39 AM, bitroast said:

WATMM

 

 

I used to think I didnt like watmm that much. When it was threads and threads of people just posting 'lol' and discussing Aphex's hair and beard in slightly too much detail.

Now I realise how good we had it.

the irony zeff is missing is that absolutely all of the men rights/problems he's mentioned were by large created and are maintained by men.

isn't MRA just an annoyed/lack-of-understanding reaction to modern feminism.

like, MRA isn't actually a thing ? right ? it's all just one big misunderstanding. right ?

  On 3/2/2016 at 9:11 AM, Zeffolia said:

 

  On 3/2/2016 at 9:08 AM, Mesh Gear Fox said:

 

  On 3/2/2016 at 8:55 AM, Zeffolia said:

Here's a pretty good article dismantling patriarchy theory. Written by some fucking 17 year kid, I mean come on even a teenager can see this bullshit for what it is: bullshit

 

http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/the-worlds-fastest-patriarchy-disproof-2/

>adviceformen.com

 

>17 year old kid

 

there's some solid journalism i tells ya

 

 

Okay lol I pointed out the age too

 

How about refuting some of the actual points made. If the source is such shit you should be able to tear it to fucking shreds, point by point. Oh wait, you can't.

 

(Actually I'll admit the part after verdict #3 is a bit shaky, but ignore it and don't fallaciously poison the well)

 

And it's not "adviceformen" it's "avoiceformen" the most prominent MRA discussion and news website. Woh, such informed, such aware of topic you actively attack /s

 

New congress is sure controlled by women: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/01/05/the-new-congress-is-80-percent-white-80-percent-male-and-92-percent-christian/

The senate follows that:http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/representative-u-s-2015-senate-96082

Women sure do sit in positions of power in academia in the US: http://www.catalyst.org/knowledge/women-academia#us

While women have made progress in management (i.e. their numbers are actually in line with the population), that glass ceiling is still very real: http://fusion.net/story/115596/women-now-hold-a-majority-of-all-management-and-professional-positions-in-the-u-s/

Women may own 40% of the private businesses, but how many people do they employ? How much revenue do they earn? It turns out, not that much: https://c401345.ssl.cf1.rackcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/13ADV-WBI-E-StateOfWomenReport_FINAL.pdf

(6% of total employed population, and 4% of business revenues, when you exclude large publicly trade firms, those numbers rise to 14% and 11% respectively).

Here is a great article on the gender pay gap: http://freakonomics.com/podcast/the-true-story-of-the-gender-pay-gap-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/ (it's also a podcast so you can listen if you prefer that method of information collection).

The conclusion - yes the gap exists, no it's because of discrimination - but largely because women seek different kinds of working environments, mostly in order to take care of others (be they children, spouses, parents). Why do women take on the caregiver roles? You don't suppose "social" pressure would have anything to do with it would you?

So all of that is just a short beginning of why the patriarchy is very real.

Now, onto your list of grievances - you list some very real ones:

The right not to be mutilated genitally, this should definitely be addressed.

The rejection of the selective services act, likewise (conscription is similar to slavery).

The vote one is a little specious, because not all states have disenfranchisement rules for felons (http://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000286), still though, ok let's give you that.

The right to abdicate parental responsibility? That's not a right. As for abortions, the vast majority of abortions are conducted with the male partners knowledge and support: https://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/j.whi.2020.10.007.pdf

The right to equal parental rights? That's also not a right. And if you're going to use the argument of removing the assumption that women are always the best potential caregiver, you're acknowledging that the gap in pay is in large part due to the fact that society demands women be primary caregivers.

Prison sentences - absolutely should be equal. Interesting the study that is most widely cited on the gender gap in prison sentencing was done by a woman: https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx

Guess those women don't care about men's rights.

As you note, none of the following are rights, so shouldn't really be included in a discussion of men's "rights".

  Quote

• The vast majority of homeless people are men
• The vast majority of suicides are male
• The vast majority of workplace deaths are male
• The vast majority of workplace injuries are male
• The vast majority of victims of violent crime of all types are men

And when I say vast majority I mean it's 90%+ in most of those cases, not little 45% and 55% splits.

1. 51% of homeless people are single men + half of the 23% of families (probably not half, because kids, but let's make it easy) so 62.5% - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States#Statistics_and_demographics. Conclusion >90%

2. Yes. 77% of all suicides are male. So while not 90%, it's a significant majority. And this can probably be explained by patriarchal views of society.

3. Yes this one is true, men made 92% of workplace deaths in 2014. And men only make up 53.2% of the civilian labor force . The number of work place deaths in 2014 was 4,679. 874 deaths (or 18.6%) of those deaths were in construction, where women make up 9% of the industry. 735 (15.7%) of those deaths were in warehousing and transportation. Women make up 22.7% of the industry.

Can you see where I'm going with this? More than 30% of the deaths in the workplace were in industries where women have traditionally had very low representation. So it's no surprise that men are more likely to die at work. What isn't surprising, is that women are much more likely to be murdered at work (proportionate to the number of fatalities) than men.

4. 60% of occupational nonfatal injuries and illnesses are accounted for by men. So not anywhere close to 90%

5. Men were 51.7% of all violent crime victims in 2013, and 50.7% in 2014. (see table 5) So not even close to 90%.

So only one of the cases was 90%+. The suicides one is very bad, but again men are largely a victim of their own societal constructs. And none of those have anything to do with feminism in anything but the most abstract way.

Fuck I wasted way too much time typing that.

Could count on Chen to get them facts, I was too lazy to find. Basically it's a huge feminazi strawman that Zeff and his ilk are attacking. I don't understand how it's so difficult for you to see that these grievances are indeed stemming from societal structures that have been created and upheld by men? And women questioning these structures aren't out to kill all men. When an under-privileged class are working towards a level playing field with a privileged class, that is not an infringement on their current privilege.

No Chen, that wasn't wasted. So far you're the only one in this thread to actually post something worth reading. Your assessment was completely fair and you didn't just tell zeph to shut up again. Thanks