Welp looks like North Korea were the sane ones after all

  On 10/31/2016 at 7:39 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 6:11 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 12:35 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 12:11 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/30/2016 at 7:45 PM, Rubin Farr said:

Now they'll bring in Sum Yun Guy to take over

and they also love rounding on the political elite at any opportunity.

They probably have a tendency to be hypercritical of their politicians/authority figures, perhaps a byproduct of their proximity to DPRK and the relative craziness of leaders from there?

Nothing to do with the leaders of DPRK (who are assuredly not crazy). They just like bitching at authority figures - they can do it now without fear of imprisonment or death. Same tendency in Japan, newly elected PM starts out with high ratings, and then sinks (usually rapidly) as he fails to do anything of note that doesn't piss off someone.

I don't base my assessment of the leaders of DPRK solely on the media.

 

More so on the books you recommended I read. They seem like proper nutjobs to me....

How are you defining nutjob? They did (and do) things that seem irrational to us, but they are assuredly not irrational acts when you look at the Kim family's endgame.

  On 10/31/2016 at 4:37 PM, chenGOD said:

...they are assuredly not irrational acts when you look at the Kim family's endgame.

which is?

  On 10/31/2016 at 5:15 PM, caze said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 4:37 PM, chenGOD said:

...they are assuredly not irrational acts when you look at the Kim family's endgame.

 

which is?

 

Supreme Leader of the Planet Earth

  On 10/31/2016 at 5:15 PM, caze said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 4:37 PM, chenGOD said:

...they are assuredly not irrational acts when you look at the Kim family's endgame.

which is?

Die a natural death in office.

  On 10/31/2016 at 4:37 PM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 7:39 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 6:11 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 12:35 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 10/31/2016 at 12:11 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 10/30/2016 at 7:45 PM, Rubin Farr said:

Now they'll bring in Sum Yun Guy to take over

and they also love rounding on the political elite at any opportunity.

They probably have a tendency to be hypercritical of their politicians/authority figures, perhaps a byproduct of their proximity to DPRK and the relative craziness of leaders from there?

Nothing to do with the leaders of DPRK (who are assuredly not crazy). They just like bitching at authority figures - they can do it now without fear of imprisonment or death. Same tendency in Japan, newly elected PM starts out with high ratings, and then sinks (usually rapidly) as he fails to do anything of note that doesn't piss off someone.

I don't base my assessment of the leaders of DPRK solely on the media.

 

More so on the books you recommended I read. They seem like proper nutjobs to me....

How are you defining nutjob? They did (and do) things that seem irrational to us, but they are assuredly not irrational acts when you look at the Kim family's endgame.

 

Yeah, I agree with you to some degree. 

Just seems like when even your biggest ally (China) is telling you to calm the fuck down and stop poking the big American bear, you're being irrational...

Especially so when proper diplomacy would be so much better... That said, that's 99% of the world right now. Bunch of dick swinging. =/

Also when I read about things such as all of DPRK's residents using USD on a regular basis (kind of in a similar way to bitcoin I guess?), it really undermines the guys credibility to me. To me a non-nutjob is someone that wholly and transparently treats things as they are. Wouldn't a more realistic person (or maybe I'm being too humanitarian or something) accept that for what it is and try and ACTUALLY address it? Like actually look at how his country's currency is worth zero on the world market and try and do something about it? That's just one example that stuck with me I guess. My only point of reference is managing staff, it would be like faking my paperwork or something.

I don't know, small things like that just make him look crazy to me.

I know you're a relative expert compared to me though. My post probably reeks of ignorance, apologies.

No apologies necessary. No ignorance exhibited.

The regime doesn't worry about currency exchange rates much, the major currency in use is actually the Chinese renminbi.

China telling North Korea to calm down is mostly for international consumption, and doesn't affect their actual relations much.

Apologies for brevity, on the old mobile technology.

I don't get why the rest of the world can't mutually agree to fix North Korea

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:26 AM, chenGOD said:

No apologies necessary. No ignorance exhibited.

The regime doesn't worry about currency exchange rates much, the major currency in use is actually the Chinese renminbi.

China telling North Korea to calm down is mostly for international consumption, and doesn't affect their actual relations much.

 

Apologies for brevity, on the old mobile technology.

RE the bolded, I figured as much. 

I think most of DPRK's purpose is to provide a buffer zone, no? I always had that impression that China's alliance with DPRK was of military significance only, provide a physical buffer between South Korean and Japan whom are US/NATO allied.

RE the currency exchange rates... that's exactly part of what makes me think the guy is a nutter. That's why I brought the example up tbh. If any documentation on DPRK is remotely unbiased, tens and tens if not hundreds of thousands of people die there yearly from starvation and the like as a result of a system quasi based on failed soviet era communism, AKA the PDS/public distribution system. Edit: I get that the deaths aren't solely resulting from the PDS itself btw, sorry if I was unclear.

In my mind, instead of playing ball with the world market by intentionally and publicly adopting a commonly accepted world currency (USD being the standard unit of currency worldwide, or index value or whatever) (when I read their economic indices it really worries me btw.. GDP/HDI etc) or otherwise trying to interact in the world market with a level head, the end result being an incredibly low standard of living for all of the people that are DYING; that makes the leadership a nutjob. It reeks of power abuse, something I generally don't associate with humanism. 

Again, perhaps I'm playing too much into western media slant, but I've gone a step further in reading some other literature that suggests the politics in that country (by all my 50/50 liberal/conservative metrics) are off the charts! I've yet to see an argument in favor of North Korean leadership that actually speaks to rationality. I can't find a source, other than DPRK media, that speaks to favor DPRK. I've not looked very hard admittedly.

Even the enforced historical origin of the family's power is rife with insanity.... You're not allowed to question the godlike origins of the Un family, as far as I understand. Apparently there are criminal repercussions? 

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:43 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

I don't get why the rest of the world can't mutually agree to fix North Korea

Because politics.

It's all military IMO.

There is a good possibility that, where I am in life, my concepts of humanism and rationality are at conflict though.

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:43 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

I don't get why the rest of the world can't mutually agree to fix North Korea

  On 11/1/2016 at 6:20 AM, chenGOD said:

 

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:43 AM, AdieuErsatzEnnui said:

I don't get why the rest of the world can't mutually agree to fix North Korea

Like they mutually agreed to fix the Middle Easy?

 

"Middle Easy"

Freudian slip? 

lol 

the Middle is always Easy

Damn autocorrect.

Also they eat kimchi in DPRK.

More proof they're nutters  

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:54 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

 

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:26 AM, chenGOD said:

No apologies necessary. No ignorance exhibited.

The regime doesn't worry about currency exchange rates much, the major currency in use is actually the Chinese renminbi.

China telling North Korea to calm down is mostly for international consumption, and doesn't affect their actual relations much.

 

Apologies for brevity, on the old mobile technology.

RE the bolded, I figured as much.

 

I think most of DPRK's purpose is to provide a buffer zone, no? I always had that impression that China's alliance with DPRK was of military significance only, provide a physical buffer between South Korean and Japan whom are US/NATO allied.

 

RE the currency exchange rates... that's exactly part of what makes me think the guy is a nutter. That's why I brought the example up tbh. If any documentation on DPRK is remotely unbiased, tens and tens if not hundreds of thousands of people die there yearly from starvation and the like as a result of a system quasi based on failed soviet era communism, AKA the PDS/public distribution system. Edit: I get that the deaths aren't solely resulting from the PDS itself btw, sorry if I was unclear.

 

In my mind, instead of playing ball with the world market by intentionally and publicly adopting a commonly accepted world currency (USD being the standard unit of currency worldwide, or index value or whatever) (when I read their economic indices it really worries me btw.. GDP/HDI etc) or otherwise trying to interact in the world market with a level head, the end result being an incredibly low standard of living for all of the people that are DYING; that makes the leadership a nutjob. It reeks of power abuse, something I generally don't associate with humanism.

 

Again, perhaps I'm playing too much into western media slant, but I've gone a step further in reading some other literature that suggests the politics in that country (by all my 50/50 liberal/conservative metrics) are off the charts! I've yet to see an argument in favor of North Korean leadership that actually speaks to rationality. I can't find a source, other than DPRK media, that speaks to favor DPRK. I've not looked very hard admittedly.

 

Even the enforced historical origin of the family's power is rife with insanity.... You're not allowed to question the godlike origins of the Un family, as far as I understand. Apparently there are criminal repercussions?

Japan isn't physically separated from China through the DPRK, but yes it is somewhat of a buffer from having 30k US troops on China's doorstep. Those troops are largely symbolic, what with modern warfare being what it is.

The PDS was a collosal failure, and yes during the worst of the famine years death tolls were really high. However, the famine really ended in 97, with smaller bouts of it occurring up until 2012. With a population of 22 million, if hundreds of thousands were dying every year that would get noticed. But that hasn't been happening, and the infant mortality rate has shown a fairly steady decrease. The PDS has somewhat been done away with, farmers are allowed to keep larger amounts of their surplus to sell privately, small instances of private industry have sprung up and the black markets have largely been tolerated. Your assumption that the USD is the only currency that matters is a little off, the Euro and the RMB are in the world basket of reserve currencies (along with a few others, including the CDN dollar lol, so it really needs updating).

In some areas the DPRK HDIs are very good, others not so much. But they are at an average level for developing countries. As for the country's GDP, only the high up accountants know the truth - the DPRK (when they release any information at all) does so through the use of percentage gains year-on-year. Since we don't have an accurate baseline, and since reporting isn't constant, those numbers are not really useful.

None of what I'm writing should be construed as support for the DPRK leadership by the way. They have committed horrible atrocities, and deserve lifetime jail. There is no serious analysis done that would favour the DPRK leadership. The point is that to treat them as irrational actors is not accurate.

Again, on the old mobile so sorry for not going into further depth.

Also kimchi is amazing. We need a :heathen: emoticon.

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:19 PM, chenGOD said:

Japan isn't physically separated from China through the DPRK, but yes it is somewhat of a buffer from having 30k US troops on China's doorstep. Those troops are largely symbolic, what with modern warfare being what it is.

 

I remember reading up on what forces were actually stationed there and there's relatively few actual infantry/armour units. Artillery, air defense, and combat aircraft make up the bulk of the troops stationed there, and the US Naval and marines are in Okinawa and Japan are essentially part of that defense. In fact there are just a few hundred US navy personal in ROK but they maintain huge facilities for exercises.

  On 11/2/2016 at 2:08 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 11/1/2016 at 5:19 PM, chenGOD said:

Japan isn't physically separated from China through the DPRK, but yes it is somewhat of a buffer from having 30k US troops on China's doorstep. Those troops are largely symbolic, what with modern warfare being what it is.

 

I remember reading up on what forces were actually stationed there and there's relatively few actual infantry/armour units. Artillery, air defense, and combat aircraft make up the bulk of the troops stationed there, and the US Naval and marines are in Okinawa and Japan are essentially part of that defense. In fact there are just a few hundred US navy personal in ROK but they maintain huge facilities for exercises.

If I recall the 8th army (HQ in Seoul) is about 20k with the 2nd Infantry Division about 10,000 strong and they're mostly armoured/mechanized infantry. The rest of the 8th army is support units (another 10k).

Then Osan Air Base has about 8k airmen.

Naval presence is small, but probably going to get bigger with the new sub base they're building on Cheju Island.

For anyone who's interested in the original scandal that this thread is based on, here's the most reasoned analysis so far.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/02/koreans-really-hate-their-presidents-secret-shamanistic-evangelical-advisor/

The original headline for the article was "Political Controversy Leaves Power Vacuum in South Korea", so ignore the clickbait title. It's a longish read, but easy.

lol yeah the protests over there are fucking mental (in terms of size - 5th week of a row or something like that of hundreds of thousands of people turning up).

Im pretty sure that once the Trump presidency gets into full swing, he's gonna make the rest of them look amateurs when it comes to colossal corruption and incompetence. He's going to be yuuuge.

I tell ya, it's gonna be great.

So Trunp is making Jong Un look sane then. Sounds about right.