the watmm GAS thread

Mmm, some gas problems with this one atm looking for an on the go laptop-alternative;

 

1200 euro's though, if it comes down to 1000 in the future I can psychologically deal with it better. 

Interestingly I've never had the desire to get an mpc.. they just seem kinda unwieldy to me. I think I'm really locked in to the TR-style sequencer format now.

  On 5/21/2017 at 10:56 AM, Djeroek said:

Mmm, some gas problems with this one atm looking for an on the go laptop-alternative;

 

1200 euro's though, if it comes down to 1000 in the future I can psychologically deal with it better. 

 

I've heard from an ex-Akai friend (almost everyone I knew there has left for better paying jobs in the last two years) who still follows that stuff pretty closely that you're still pretty much tied to the computer for most of the advanced features,  it that helps you resist. 

 

It's a lot more money but that new Pioneer SP-16 sampler thing looks really good to me.

  On 5/21/2017 at 1:00 PM, modey said:

Interestingly I've never had the desire to get an mpc.. they just seem kinda unwieldy to me. I think I'm really locked in to the TR-style sequencer format now.

I literally dreamt of having an MPC for a long time, and enjoyed working with the MPC1000 for years.

 

As far as the original line (haven't really looked into or cared about the latest models), a lot of enthusiasts/apologists wax poetic about the converters or the swing algorithm but I think its true appeal is almost the opposite - its transparency, its garbage-in/garbage-out nature. It does what you tell it, it doesn't butter up your expectations with empty promises, it doesn't really get in your way too much with the menu diving (unless you're really anal about sample/program editing and in which case you're missing the point), and it doesn't flatter you. It records and plays back audio at the sampling rate and it records and plays back events at 24ppqn. It's got some filters and some utilitarian effect processing. And if you're a disciple of 80s/90s tracker modules (or hip hop), you know that's enough tooling to create a masterpiece. Just add samples, inspiration, skills, and free time.

 

This is all pretty banal but the thing is that when magic starts coming out of the MPC, you know that the magic came from you.

  On 5/21/2017 at 5:45 PM, sweepstakes said:

 

  On 5/21/2017 at 1:00 PM, modey said:

Interestingly I've never had the desire to get an mpc.. they just seem kinda unwieldy to me. I think I'm really locked in to the TR-style sequencer format now.

I literally dreamt of having an MPC for a long time, and enjoyed working with the MPC1000 for years.

 

As far as the original line (haven't really looked into or cared about the latest models), a lot of enthusiasts/apologists wax poetic about the converters or the swing algorithm but I think its true appeal is almost the opposite - its transparency, its garbage-in/garbage-out nature. It does what you tell it, it doesn't butter up your expectations with empty promises, it doesn't really get in your way too much with the menu diving (unless you're really anal about sample/program editing and in which case you're missing the point), and it doesn't flatter you. It records and plays back audio at the sampling rate and it records and plays back events at 24ppqn. It's got some filters and some utilitarian effect processing. And if you're a disciple of 80s/90s tracker modules (or hip hop), you know that's enough tooling to create a masterpiece. Just add samples, inspiration, skills, and free time.

 

This is all pretty banal but the thing is that when magic starts coming out of the MPC, you know that the magic came from you.

 

 

I was using an MPC2000xl as the center of my setup from 2010 until last summer and there's definitely something there.  I didn't find its converters transparent AT ALL but I like what they do and even though I'm not using it as much anymore I still sample on it a lot to get that sound, and I still program drums on it a lot because the pads are so nice to play on.  I don't know if it's true but I've heard for years that the 2000/2000xl OS has a bug in the filter that keeps it slightly resonant even when the resonance is turned all the way down and that gives it its sound. As far as "mpc swing"  I always thought that was just some myth but yesterday at work I stumbled on a thread where reproduced the Innerclock Systems jitter tests on an MPC2000 and one of the interesting things (other than it performing really well - not up to the level of the MPC3000 but almost identical to Elektron machines and way better than most other hardware that has been tested, which surprised me even as a big fan of the 2000's) was that with quantized 16th notes, every other note was slightly behind the clock, so maybe the "MPC swing" isn't a myth after all.

 

 

The 2000xl sequencer is still my favorite for tape machine style, unquantized sequencing, quicker and more fun than any other hardware or software sequencer I've worked with (including a few I've used for a lot longer than I sued the MPC, so it wasn't just down to practice).  The sequencer is actually my favorite thing about old MPCs, t be honest.  They're good sampling drum machines, but they're fantastic hardware sequencers. For quantized, TR-like patterns it' kind of uninspiring though. 

 

Haven't used the newer ones much, the 1000 with JJOS seems pretty great and has a lot more functionality although the pads aren't as nice. Never tried one with the stock OS but I know pretty much for a fact (from people who were there) that Akai deliberately crippled some OS features in the 1000 to try to force professionals to buy the 2500, and that's what created the market for JJOS in the first place.

 

 

EDIT: point is, MPCs are cool.The only thing I really wish the 2000xl had was more RAM and something along the lines of how you can sample in real time over a sequence on the Octatrack with qrec and recorder trigs.  If it had that it would be the perfect machine for me.

 

EDIT 2: also clock swing.

Edited May 21, 2017 by RSP

  On 5/21/2017 at 6:43 PM, RSP said:

The 2000xl sequencer is still my favorite for tape machine style, unquantized sequencing, quicker and more fun than any other hardware or software sequencer I've worked with (including a few I've used for a lot longer than I sued the MPC, so it wasn't just down to practice).  The sequencer is actually my favorite thing about old MPCs, t be honest.  They're good sampling drum machines, but they're fantastic hardware sequencers.

Yes. Most surprising to me was how true this was with monophonic voices:

- Muting and unmuting several tracks of notes or control change messages that collectively target one monosynth. It seems like such a boring way to create variations but by simple juxtaposition and timing you find interesting and unexpected relationships. It also encourages you to boil melodies or baselines down into components or features, which suggests mixing and matching them, changing their transposition and timing, etc.  

- The typical MPC use case of re-sequencing a chopped/sliced loop from vinyl, where each pad hit is effectively a real-time tape splice. Again with the surprising relationships... I often got in this weird trance where the rolling, swinging micro-rhythms almost felt like they were controlling me rather than the other way around. Like freeing the statue from the block. It seems almost idiotic but there's a real magic to it, especially with the lack of visual feedback.

Oh, the other thing on the 2000 that I'd like is more comprehensive mute groups, but that's all stuff that JJOS fixed as far as I know. 

 

Yeah, I definitely come up with things I'd never have come up with on my own by playing chopped samples from records. To be honest, I've never really been very personally inspired by sampling from other people's tracks on other machines or in software, but on the MPC it's just great, I think not being able to easily match pitch and tempo on it like you can with more modern samplers is a benefit for that kind of stuff, too.  You either have to really put a lot of thought into your sample preparation, or just do it by ear and let some of the surprising juxtapositions that come out of it be part of the writing process.

 

 

A few years ago a local music store had an MPC3000 in good cosmetic shape with a hard case for sale for $500 because they didn't have a boot disk to test it, and I kind of regret not getting it but I'd have had to sell the 2000xl (which I got for $100 and put another $300 into to add the 8 out and effects boards, so it would have been an even better deal - that thing would have fetched more than $500 back then, not sure about these days) to raise the money and I like it so much I couldn't bear to part with it. Probably a dumb move but it's one of the only pieces of gear that I'm attached to the way you might get attached to a guitar or violin or something.  It really feels like an instrument in the classic sense.  I've definitely had plenty of days where I sat down in front of the MPC at like 10 in the morning, and then the next thing I know it's 7:00 at night and I still haven't eaten lunch yet.

 

It's nice to be able to actually send SYSEX commands from a hardware sequencer, you don't seem to see that on a lot of more modern gear.

Edited May 21, 2017 by RSP

Which sends SYSEX? is it the 2000? Can't seem to work it out on my 1000

I've never really used drum machines, but recently came across a cheap Korg ER-1 and decided to buy it. Anyone got any tips/tricks for this little box? 

 

Just messing around for an hour, I've managed to get some pretty cool sounds out of it. I'm thinking of having it sequence my Volca keys and PO-32. 

  On 5/21/2017 at 9:01 PM, RSP said:

I've never really been very personally inspired by sampling from other people's tracks on other machines or in software, but on the MPC it's just great, I think not being able to easily match pitch and tempo on it like you can with more modern samplers is a benefit for that kind of stuff, too.  You either have to really put a lot of thought into your sample preparation, or just do it by ear and let some of the surprising juxtapositions that come out of it be part of the writing process.

Yup, totally agree... obviously I'm in the latter camp and am happy to move the furniture around to accommodate the alien guests. 

 

  On 5/21/2017 at 9:01 PM, RSP said:

it's one of the only pieces of gear that I'm attached to the way you might get attached to a guitar or violin or something.  It really feels like an instrument in the classic sense.

Totally feel this. I can't bear to sell mine even though I don't use it nearly as often as I should.  

 

  On 5/21/2017 at 11:30 PM, Chris Toffer said:

Which sends SYSEX? is it the 2000? Can't seem to work it out on my 1000

Might be a JJOS-only thing. The only thing I've found that it can't seem to properly send (and what the FUCK is with this weird quasi-religious fear of doing this that so many hardware sequencers have, god bless the Monomachine) is mid-sequence program changes.  Hopefully I'm remembering this wrong. But yeah, inline sysex is pretty great.

 

  On 5/21/2017 at 11:33 PM, Auditor said:

I've never really used drum machines, but recently came across a cheap Korg ER-1 and decided to buy it. Anyone got any tips/tricks for this little box?

Push buttons, twist knobs, have fun! Try everything before you throw it out the window. If I remember right that thing has better bass than people give it credit for. Also I think you can fake basslines by motion-sequencing the pitch.

 

Gate sequencing of incoming audio signals is nice too. Try it with a turntable - auto crossfader!

 

The samples (hi hats, etc.) are pretty boring iirc but you don't have to use them. :)

  On 5/21/2017 at 11:33 PM, Auditor said:

I'm thinking of having it sequence my Volca keys and PO-32.

Sadly I don't think this is possible (unless there's been a firmware upgrade?? please tell me I'm wrong!!). You can't sequence the PO-32; you can only sync it up to other things that speak its clock signal (e.g. other POs, volcas, post-volca Korgs in general.) This is the one major shortcoming of the PO-32 imho, and the only reason I even care is because it's a pretty amazing drum synth otherwise.

 

Interesting combo with the ER-1. They seem very similar architecturally, even down to the 4-note drum synth polyphony.

Oh shit, that's what I meant was to clock them. I just want to have everything at the same bpm. If THAT can't be done, I might just sell the er-1 (could sell it for exactly what I bought it for or more). I'm thinking that if I can to er-1 > volca > po-32, that should work. I'm pretty inexperienced with midi/syncing shit. 

Edited May 22, 2017 by Auditor

You can enter sysex data manually on any step in the 2000xl sequencer, no idea if the 1000 can do it.

 

 

I've never used a Korg ER-1 but they seem really cool.  I wish I'd known about them back when the older Electribes were really, really cheap.

Edited May 22, 2017 by RSP

  On 5/22/2017 at 12:59 AM, Auditor said:

Oh shit, that's what I meant was to clock them. I just want to have everything at the same bpm. If THAT can't be done, I might just sell the er-1 (could sell it for exactly what I bought it for or more). I'm thinking that if I can to er-1 > volca > po-32, that should work. I'm pretty inexperienced with midi/syncing shit. 

Yep shouldn't be a problem. Note however that the PO-series don't respond to start/stop messages, so they will be in sync tempo-wise but you'll still have to hit play manually. It's slightly better than just syncing it by ear but it's almost not worth the extra cabling.

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 1:12 AM, RSP said:

You can enter sysex data manually on any step in the 2000xl sequencer, no idea if the 1000 can do it.

 

 

I've never used a Korg ER-1 but they seem really cool.  I wish I'd known about them back when the older Electribes were really, really cheap.

Yep, in JJOS you do it in the step sequencer as well. Kind of tedious with anything more than a few bytes but it's there in a pinch and I think it can be copy+pasted just like notes/CCs.

  On 5/22/2017 at 12:59 AM, Auditor said:

Oh shit, that's what I meant was to clock them. I just want to have everything at the same bpm. If THAT can't be done, I might just sell the er-1 (could sell it for exactly what I bought it for or more). I'm thinking that if I can to er-1 > volca > po-32, that should work. I'm pretty inexperienced with midi/syncing shit.

That should work. If the volca is receiving a MIDI clock signal, it converts it into sync pulses. So glad they added that feature, it makes syncing octatrack to nanoloop so easy

  On 5/22/2017 at 2:25 AM, sweepstakes said:

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 12:59 AM, Auditor said:

Oh shit, that's what I meant was to clock them. I just want to have everything at the same bpm. If THAT can't be done, I might just sell the er-1 (could sell it for exactly what I bought it for or more). I'm thinking that if I can to er-1 > volca > po-32, that should work. I'm pretty inexperienced with midi/syncing shit. 

Yep shouldn't be a problem. Note however that the PO-series don't respond to start/stop messages, so they will be in sync tempo-wise but you'll still have to hit play manually. It's slightly better than just syncing it by ear but it's almost not worth the extra cabling.

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 1:12 AM, RSP said:

You can enter sysex data manually on any step in the 2000xl sequencer, no idea if the 1000 can do it.

 

 

I've never used a Korg ER-1 but they seem really cool.  I wish I'd known about them back when the older Electribes were really, really cheap.

Yep, in JJOS you do it in the step sequencer as well. Kind of tedious with anything more than a few bytes but it's there in a pinch and I think it can be copy+pasted just like notes/CCs.

 

 

I think in theory you can also manually dump sysex to/from external gear (by just recording it into the MPC and then playing it back into the synth later) but I've only tried it once or twice and it never worked right and I didn't really need to do it so I never figured out what was going wrong.

  On 5/22/2017 at 2:25 AM, sweepstakes said:

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 12:59 AM, Auditor said:

Oh shit, that's what I meant was to clock them. I just want to have everything at the same bpm. If THAT can't be done, I might just sell the er-1 (could sell it for exactly what I bought it for or more). I'm thinking that if I can to er-1 > volca > po-32, that should work. I'm pretty inexperienced with midi/syncing shit. 

Yep shouldn't be a problem. Note however that the PO-series don't respond to start/stop messages, so they will be in sync tempo-wise but you'll still have to hit play manually. It's slightly better than just syncing it by ear but it's almost not worth the extra cabling.

 

Yep, it worked. Just jammed out for an hour. I have no clue how I would use this setup (I don't play live right now), but it's a lot of fun. I think the next thing I need is a multi-channel audio interface so I can at least record the 3 machines on different tracks simultaneously. Anyone got any recs?

If anyone's into the MPC shuffle, you can download MPC groove templates for Logic HERE.  You have to open the file, copy the folder containing midi data to a song you're working on (or start from scratch), select those midi regions, on the left side under Quantize select "Make Groove Template", theeen, under Quantize the MPC shuffles with be available...  Yah.  But you have to keep those midi files in the song file to keep the MPC settings under the Quantize menu, so it might be more convenient to make a template with the groove templates already loaded.

  On 5/22/2017 at 5:14 AM, peace 7 said:

If anyone's into the MPC shuffle, you can download MPC groove templates for Logic HERE.  You have to open the file, copy the folder containing midi data to a song you're working on (or start from scratch), select those midi regions, on the left side under Quantize select "Make Groove Template", theeen, under Quantize the MPC shuffles with be available...  Yah.  But you have to keep those midi files in the song file to keep the MPC settings under the Quantize menu, so it might be more convenient to make a template with the groove templates already loaded.

 

That's not the same thing I was talking about though, unless I'm mistaken those are based on the shuffle parameter in the MPC, which is no different than any shuffle parameter.

 

There's also a sort of mythical inherent shuffle to the MPC's clock that I never personally believed in but that thread I posted above suggests it might actually be real.

 

Unless I'm wrong and those groove templates are actually derived from MIDI clock taken from an actual MPC or something, in which case if it really is a real thing they should do the trick.

 

Personally I think a lot of it is down to 24ppq resolution still being coarse enough that even with quantize off there's still just enough quantization happening to affect the feel, but this is all getting in to mpc-forums superstition territory.

The 24ppq resolution theory definitely makes sense. I always get annoyed with the 96 ppq resolution of the 1000, can't do perfect 1/5 notes and it irritates me

interesting words about MPCs in this thread.. as an aside to what I said earlier, I *do* find the MPC1000 pretty cute aesthetically, which means I'll probably at least try one someday :P but the octatrack is really hitting it for me as a super beautiful sampler and sequencer that does more than I ever thought I'd want a sampler/sequencer to do..

I have been thinking about the MPC1000 many times, because the workflow seems to be really easy for recording realtime MIDI loops, then recording the audio into samples which can then be filtered and mangled somehow. This is more or less what I'm doing anyway with a laptop, except my workflow is much more muddled because I don't really know how to set up Live to do the same things comfortably. The MPC however has a purpose designed UI.. 

But each time I think about that, I say to myself that I should work harder and figure out my own (better) workflow, instead of starting down the hardware path, which will inevitably lead to GAS and misery...

  On 5/22/2017 at 6:27 AM, modey said:

interesting words about MPCs in this thread.. as an aside to what I said earlier, I *do* find the MPC1000 pretty cute aesthetically, which means I'll probably at least try one someday :P but the octatrack is really hitting it for me as a super beautiful sampler and sequencer that does more than I ever thought I'd want a sampler/sequencer to do..

 

The more I've learned about the OT the more I respect it, it seems like the mid period (2000/3000) MPCs and the OT fill in almost all of each other's gaps.  An MPC1000/2000/3000 + an OT + an s3000 or Kurzweil k2000 or k2500 with the sampling addon would be a pretty incredible setup for sample based music.

 

I hadn't really thought about it like this before, but getting that underpriced 2000xl on a whim back around 2010 has absolutely impacted all of the music I've made since then, even when I'm not actually using it.

 

On the other hand, maybe it's also because my first (and for a long time only) real electronic instrument was a DR660 and those things really are like baby MPCs in a lot of ways.  So using an actual MPC, especially one that's still very close to the Linn era of MPCs, is just putting me back in the head space of first learning how to sequence.  The 2000xl workflow I have really is just a fancier version of "program some patterns, record them onto one track on the portastudio, and then overdub on the other three tracks." 

 

Whatever it is, I definitely have an emotional connection to the MPC I don't generally get from electronic gear.

Edited May 22, 2017 by RSP

  On 5/22/2017 at 5:57 AM, RSP said:

Personally I think a lot of it is down to 24ppq resolution still being coarse enough that even with quantize off there's still just enough quantization happening to affect the feel, but this is all getting in to mpc-forums superstition territory.

I like this theory, it's a no-nonsense explanation of why the MPC's timing feels more precise than forgiving but you can still get bang on with enough perseverance. edit: Whereas with the Octatrack it's always, always off for me when I real-time record. Of course, it's probably more my shitty timing than anything else.

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 6:26 AM, Chris Toffer said:

can't do perfect 1/5 notes

Sure you can... multiply your tempo by 5/6, set your time signature to 5/something, and lay your hi hats down every 10 ticks instead of 12 ticks. A little awkward but if you think bars instead of beats you should be good.

Edited May 22, 2017 by sweepstakes

  On 5/22/2017 at 7:36 AM, RSP said:

 

  On 5/22/2017 at 6:27 AM, modey said:

interesting words about MPCs in this thread.. as an aside to what I said earlier, I *do* find the MPC1000 pretty cute aesthetically, which means I'll probably at least try one someday :P but the octatrack is really hitting it for me as a super beautiful sampler and sequencer that does more than I ever thought I'd want a sampler/sequencer to do..

 

The more I've learned about the OT the more I respect it, it seems like the mid period (2000/3000) MPCs and the OT fill in almost all of each other's gaps.  An MPC1000/2000/3000 + an OT + an s3000 or Kurzweil k2000 or k2500 with the sampling addon would be a pretty incredible setup for sample based music.

 

The OT is really great, but in totally different ways. It really is apples and oranges.

 

Those two together are a lot of sampling & sequencing power. WNY/Winnie the Shit was using this setup recently, and he said they are a great combo and complement each other beautifully.

 

I personally haven't got into it personally beyond arpeggiating MPC kits with the OT (which is good fun, btw!). It's tempting to imagine the two controlling and sampling each other along with other synths, but the routing and the hemming and hawing about which machine gets sampling duty gives me a headache, lol. If I went with that setup I think any other gear would be relatively simple or menu-free synths and processors.

The MPC posts here are almost poetry, lovely to read and to think about. This is why I like watmm gear discussions; it's less LOOK AT THIS COOL SYNTH and more about workflow, the secret corners people have found on their gear, etc. Nothing quite like it for getting me excited about going deep with what I already have.