Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

  On 2/3/2018 at 7:30 AM, Deer said:

i dont understand, should we not spy on spies? carter page was playing around with russians, you play with russians you get spied on. Russian gov't is actively trying to undermine and destroy western society, i have zero problems spying on putin's dogs.

Yeah, Page was on the FBI's radar long before any of this Trump shit came around, since 2013 iirc.

Biggest problem with the memo imo is that it was released on a Friday (before the Super Bowl as was pointed out by Sally, see below). Also, it's sorta got a small problem of having in it almost zero new information. It'll still be something the fringe idiots can point at (Trump is a fringe idiot himself in this case) and yell at Democrats about, and that's all it'll be useful for...but if it had gone out on a slow Monday or Tuesday it could've gotten more traction for a few days...Trump's team should've known this... Democrats are likely releasing their own soon (been distributed to Congress and is going to be voted on to be released to the public) but it doesn't matter. They're not going to beat the Republicans by playing their own game.

  On 2/3/2018 at 6:59 AM, Sally Vingoe said:

the superbowl seems like a nice distraction to fire rosenstein, before the dems can release their own memo. then he can just tweet something outrageous to try and move the news cycle on, or, failing that, strike north korea

 

and to rebut it fully, the FBI/DOJ might have to expose sensitive info about sources

 

it feels like a chess move by the russians, to fuck with america using its own institutions, but occams razor suggests its just the usual clownery by trump

I doubt Trump will fire Rosenstein, but it's certainly possible. Even if so, whoever replaces him couldn't then fire Mueller, that'd be too obvious, they'd have to work at discrediting him and his investigation (which is all they've been trying to do for months with this anti-FBI shit of course).

Definitely is just Russians using new tactics sorta haphazardly, but it worked well so they kept it up and accomplished their goals.

  On 2/2/2018 at 6:42 PM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

Is it just me or was that memo anticlimactic? 

 

Almost everything in there has already been said at some point.

the timing of it being on the same day as groundhog's day was fitting

  On 2/3/2018 at 1:34 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 2/3/2018 at 7:30 AM, Deer said:

i dont understand, should we not spy on spies? carter page was playing around with russians, you play with russians you get spied on. Russian gov't is actively trying to undermine and destroy western society, i have zero problems spying on putin's dogs.

Yeah, Page was on the FBI's radar long before any of this Trump shit came around, since 2013 iirc.

I heard a few GOP congressmen on NPR interviewed about why it was so important to release it and they went through the polite, seemingly reasonable approach of "well we trust the FBI but their leaders are letting us down" and that Americans should be concerned about their government spying on their own people, politicizing their role, etc. It's fucking mind-boggling to me that these hacks can say this shit with a straight face when they have openly supported the need of the FBI to that very thing well before and well after 9/11. They were literally cheering the FBI to investigate, aggressively and irresponsibly, HRC and the DNC. 

Absolutely no shame. The GOP sells the idea of a smaller government and they give us a more expensive one that's run by them. It's that simple. It's incredible watching patsies like Hannity literally call for NSA whistle-blowers to be tried for treason then get excited to leak out memos on live tv as soon as it's to defend Trump.

It's like a really dark Simpsons episode where immature adults get involved over absurdly misguided concerns and drag down everyone else with them, all while the sane and reasonable shake their heads in futility. 

I heard some of those same interviews, and was thinking the same thing man. It's pretty sad, but it's not at all surprising. They'll do that shit all day if it helps their cause...but the Dems will do the same sort of shit when they think they can get away with it. Dems are a touch more scared of their base voting them out (or rather, not showing up to vote) than the Reps though, so the dynamic is a touch different. But the GOP is really leading the way in the depths they'll go to be shitty and worthless.

It is good to see some Republicans still out there with brains in their heads, though...I'm speaking of course of the growing number of R Congress members not seeking reelection this year... :)

Two parties is still a fucking joke though. That's gotta change soon.

  On 2/3/2018 at 7:30 AM, Deer said:

i dont understand, should we not spy on spies? carter page was playing around with russians, you play with russians you get spied on. Russian gov't is actively trying to undermine and destroy western society, i have zero problems spying on putin's dogs.

Precisely.

  On 2/3/2018 at 2:17 PM, joshuatx said:

 

  On 2/2/2018 at 6:42 PM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

Is it just me or was that memo anticlimactic?

 

Almost everything in there has already been said at some point.

the timing of it being on the same day as groundhog's day was fitting

  On 2/3/2018 at 1:34 PM, auxien said:

 

  On 2/3/2018 at 7:30 AM, Deer said:

i dont understand, should we not spy on spies? carter page was playing around with russians, you play with russians you get spied on. Russian gov't is actively trying to undermine and destroy western society, i have zero problems spying on putin's dogs.

Yeah, Page was on the FBI's radar long before any of this Trump shit came around, since 2013 iirc.

I heard a few GOP congressmen on NPR interviewed about why it was so important to release it and they went through the polite, seemingly reasonable approach of "well we trust the FBI but their leaders are letting us down" and that Americans should be concerned about their government spying on their own people, politicizing their role, etc. It's fucking mind-boggling to me that these hacks can say this shit with a straight face when they have openly supported the need of the FBI to that very thing well before and well after 9/11. They were literally cheering the FBI to investigate, aggressively and irresponsibly, HRC and the DNC.

 

Absolutely no shame. The GOP sells the idea of a smaller government and they give us a more expensive one that's run by them. It's that simple. It's incredible watching patsies like Hannity literally call for NSA whistle-blowers to be tried for treason then get excited to leak out memos on live tv as soon as it's to defend Trump.

 

It's like a really dark Simpsons episode where immature adults get involved over absurdly misguided concerns and drag down everyone else with them, all while the sane and reasonable shake their heads in futility.

Precisely.

  On 2/4/2018 at 4:02 AM, auxien said:

I heard some of those same interviews, and was thinking the same thing man. It's pretty sad, but it's not at all surprising. They'll do that shit all day if it helps their cause...but the Dems will do the same sort of shit when they think they can get away with it. Dems are a touch more scared of their base voting them out (or rather, not showing up to vote) than the Reps though, so the dynamic is a touch different. But the GOP is really leading the way in the depths they'll go to be shitty and worthless.

 

It is good to see some Republicans still out there with brains in their heads, though...I'm speaking of course of the growing number of R Congress members not seeking reelection this year... :)

 

Two parties is still a fucking joke though. That's gotta change soon.

Yeah they've been our ruling parties for what, the last 150 years now? While the GOP have become King Trump and his court of old white knights now, the Dems are still rife with pretentious white wine-sipping old ladies living the lavish life thanks to corporate donors - the one entity that both parties are now beholden to.

Bottom line is, more of the lesser-of-two-evils crap in future elections won't make things better for the rest of us.

i have never once heard a democrat say that the republicans are just as bad as the democrats. about a hundred times i have heard republicans say that the democrats are just as bad as the republicans.

  On 2/4/2018 at 5:40 AM, very honest said:

i have never once heard a democrat say that the republicans are just as bad as the democrats. about a hundred times i have heard republicans say that the democrats are just as bad as the republicans.

Good point.

I'd say it matters if you're in the majority of the minority though. It's different when you're a majority. Easier to say the minority is just as bad (so you can stay on our side). The minority has to somehow convince people supporting the majority to switch to the minority. In that context, saying you're just as bad as the majority wouldn't be very helpful. It's a different game. It's a false equivalence.

Also, with what we're currently seeing, I'm not sure it's fair to say the dems are just as bad as the reps. If you want to argue both reps and dems equally depend on a small group of financial donors, I'd agree.

Plus, I'd also like to ironically note there's good people on both sides. :)

  On 2/4/2018 at 9:18 AM, goDel said:

Also, with what we're currently seeing, I'm not sure it's fair to say the dems are just as bad as the reps. If you want to argue both reps and dems equally depend on a small group of financial donors, I'd agree.

 

Plus, I'd also like to ironically note there's good people on both sides. :)

And they are either getting voted out or retiring out of frustration. 

Yeah this is what fucks with my head though, and morale. Seeking out truth, context, objective perspective...that honest path leads to complicated, nuanced, and oft messy conclusions. It's a lot easier to choose an echochamber and stick with a narrative. 

This is what fuels Trump supporters. They've shed any care about being hypocrites, immoral, dishonest, uncaring, or even traditionally patriotic. You either fall in line or you don't. If you're liberal they think you are delusional, centrists are pussies, and moderate GOPers are cucks. Discussion and compromise is weak, hardliners on the other side are even easier to dismiss for them. 

They don't have to be a majority, they just have to wear everyone else out. I literally, briefly (very very briefly) thought "am I wrong, is this Mueller thing really out of hand?" I know it isn't. It's a gut feeling. Trump is a red flag of everything that is wrong that is shaped by my 32 years of learning all I can about the world and American history. But that means dick. It's futile to discuss and debate with any Trump supporter, so why bother. I'm armed with "nothing" to them, they are armed with rhetoric they absorb daily from bullshit news outlets.

The relatives I know into Trump feel empowered by him. Empowered to fight something that doesn't exist. For the older ones it's a channel to vent their resentment of Obama being elected, of confusion of things changing, of frustration of the state of this country that was, ironically, caused mostly by the people the Republicans they've voted in for decades. The younger ones are literally just immature trolls (I don't talk to them often, thankfully. Hilariously they are civil IRL). Either way this is a hobby to them. And it makes them feel superior. They have "knowledge" that I don't. They are "fighting" a war I am "too ignorant" to fully understand. They "pity" us, feel like they are "saving" us.

It literally goes hand-in-hand with more free times, either because they don't work or they are retired. So for me, and everyone else I know who is disillusioned, apathetic, upset (including conservatives) we simply don't have the time and energy. We have jobs, families, hobbies we rather spend out free time and energy towards. Why waste it engaging in something so draining and so futile? That's the biggest tragedy of all of this for me personally.

Josh, I've always noticed very thoughtful posts from you on these topics, and gleaned that you're down there in the heartland, engaging people in discussion. You're fighting the good fight, man. 

It seems to me that the information environment is an evolutionary scale hurdle that we are stuck at. Some people say that listening to the other side is important, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Do you agree? And what other thoughts do you have on bridging the polarization that was already a problem before, apparently, foreign adversaries decided to worsen it?

  On 2/4/2018 at 3:20 PM, very honest said:

Some people say that listening to the other side is important, and that makes a lot of sense to me. Do you agree? And what other thoughts do you have on bridging the polarization that was already a problem before, apparently, foreign adversaries decided to worsen it?

I agree, the problem, and granted this sounds cliche as fuck, is we are so divided and that's exactly the status quo wants.

I think the issue not talked about is this pragmatic versus ideological one: the GOP dismisses this with their anti-government silliness, the Dems struggle with this when it comes to their platform. When I worked for the Texas legislature from 2009-2014 the insight I gained was that surface politics is very different than reality. At the time (it's a lot worse now) there was this breakdown of legislators in three camps - the shameless Dem and GOP patsies, the sincere but often stubborn ideologues, and the actual statesmen who worked to pass good legislation for their constituents and the state. They did all the real work and everyone else just voted. It was interesting how when you know the behind the scenes stuff how politicians I would of otherwise dismissed (loud right-wingers) were actually decent people, or how politicians I liked policy wise (brazen progressives/liberals) were sadly kind of inept at their job. The thing is that good sound legislation doesn't make for headlines or convenient campaign claims. 

The thing that sucks is how much these moderates and/or pragmatists are leaving. Primary politics especially is nasty and vile. That camp of good legislators is shrinking fast. My hope is more come in office (and it's a big possibility) but it's going to be a hard battle. That's why the solution to "drain the swamp" is flawed, for every lobbyist hack that leaves office so does a qualified, expert even, legislator leaves too. The solution is to instill anti-corruption laws, transparency, greater voter participation and awareness, and civics education, but right now those things are virtually impossible. The media, lobbyists, even us as voters are really not helping. Some really rather have the drama.

very interesting

  On 2/4/2018 at 2:59 PM, joshuatx said:

 

They don't have to be a majority, they just have to wear everyone else out. I literally, briefly (very very briefly) thought "am I wrong, is this Mueller thing really out of hand?" I know it isn't. It's a gut feeling. Trump is a red flag of everything that is wrong that is shaped by my 32 years of learning all I can about the world and American history. But that means dick. It's futile to discuss and debate with any Trump supporter, so why bother. I'm armed with "nothing" to them, they are armed with rhetoric they absorb daily from bullshit news outlets.

 

It's a huge gaslighting experiment where one persons dominant reality gets amplified so much, you have to believe it yourself in order to be able to exist in this alternate version of reality. This is what harassment is all about, really. Your sense of reality is being hammered to pieces until you submit and admit you're wrong and they're right. It's all your fault.

This is Harvey Weinstein on a national scale. Without the sexual acts, but with the psychological harassment and actual threats. If you wondered what psychological harassment is about, well, now you know. The moment you stop believing you know what is up or down and you surrender to some other reality out of pure exhaustion, you've been harassed. It's hard to explain..

  On 2/4/2018 at 7:42 PM, goDel said:

 

  On 2/4/2018 at 2:59 PM, joshuatx said:

 

They don't have to be a majority, they just have to wear everyone else out. I literally, briefly (very very briefly) thought "am I wrong, is this Mueller thing really out of hand?" I know it isn't. It's a gut feeling. Trump is a red flag of everything that is wrong that is shaped by my 32 years of learning all I can about the world and American history. But that means dick. It's futile to discuss and debate with any Trump supporter, so why bother. I'm armed with "nothing" to them, they are armed with rhetoric they absorb daily from bullshit news outlets.

 

 

It's a huge gaslighting experiment where one persons dominant reality gets amplified so much, you have to believe it yourself in order to be able to exist in this alternate version of reality. This is what harassment is all about, really. Your sense of reality is being hammered to pieces until you submit and admit you're wrong and they're right. It's all your fault.

 

This is Harvey Weinstein on a national scale. Without the sexual acts, but with the psychological harassment and actual threats. If you wondered what psychological harassment is about, well, now you know. The moment you stop believing you know what is up or down and you surrender to some other reality out of pure exhaustion, you've been harassed. It's hard to explain..

 

Trumps stock boasting getting a roasting.

Donnie's already blaming the Dems for the stock market...

To joshtx's comments - discussing Trump has become taboo so we don't do it. My Texas republican family hates his ass. I gave up trying to understand people here who still think this fucking fraud represents them.

I see self made signs off of roads with spray painted messages of support for Trump and Abbott that look like ramblings of a madman, and it's bewildering...I still can't believe a billionaire NYC orange businessman with no political experience and who has never worked a hard labor job in his life, has conned at least 30 million people totally different than him into believing he gives a crap about them and is going to give them a better life.

He thrives on the attention his supporters give him, but he doesn't actually give a damn about their well being.

I also heard that he flat-out accused the Dems of treason for refusal to applaud him at his SOTU address. It's impossible for me not to imagine how this isn't the method of an unhinged tyrant.

Damn it, November 6th can't come soon enough.

even liberal pundits saying dems should have stood...wtf would they want to stand for him? shows how shallow the allegiance to empty pomp is in america

A bit of emotional salvation for our people living in the Trump heartlands against their will. Entertaining piece to free your mind.

    Quote

I Hang A Sign That Says "GOD BLESS THE FBI" And Am Visited By The Ghost Of Abbie Hoffman

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/1/26/1736348/-I-Hang-A-Sign-That-Says-GOD-BLESS-THE-FBI-And-Am-Visited-By-The-Ghost-Of-Abbie-Hoffman

Oh yeah, I almost forgot that Mike Pence just had a stopover here where I live. Local news station is fawning all over it, and I didn't bother watching any of the videos on FB. But one local left this comment on one of them:
 

    Quote

 

You’re right Mr. Vice President. God keep you and our President save from our own government.

Wow. I'm actually surrounded by these wack jobs.

John Kelly thinks Dreamers were “too afraid” or “too lazy” to sign up for DACA

https://news.vice.com/en_us/article/j5bq7g/john-kelly-thinks-dreamers-were-too-afraid-or-too-lazy-to-sign-up-for-daca

WH official turns out to be racist, news at 11.

I don't blame Dreamers for not signing up, because the Gest...erm, ICE, are sure to use that to pick up people to deport.

I kind of agree with kelly here, it took me two years to sign up for daca because i was too lazy/comfortable with my situation prior to being a dreamer.

What many people who defend illegal immigration don't know is that you can make some serious cash being illegal in this country, if you play your cards right you keep 100 percent of your money, many people who qualify for DACA don't want it for that same reason, they dont want to get ahead in this country, they just want to make money (and if thats what you want to do thats fine i dont judge but i want to get ahead in this country and get an education)

The democrats are being shits for not accepting Trump's terms, every dreamer i know (selfishly) are screaming at democrats for not accepting the deal. Democrats are using dreamers to obstruct Trump's administration, i mean the guy wants to give us a path to citizenship (something obama and democrats never wanted to give us), give the man the wall!!! i dont want to go back to my birth country, i love it here and want to become a citizen.

Agreed, give Trump the wall, it will be another boondoggle for him. It will never be finished, but Dreamers get their path to citizenship. But Dems are garbage and useless.