Now That Trump's President... (not any more!)

  On 7/23/2020 at 9:49 PM, dingformung said:

I agree with everything you said but again, nobody claimed that these things are only linked to capitalism but certainly capitalism is able to produce them. A lot of problems wouldn't exist without unbraked capitalism. And all regulations that can help overcome certain problems make the system less capitalist.

It was born because they are democracies, not because they are capitalist.

Well, you can't really boycott something if government produces everything, but yes being democractic and having a freedom of speech is the thing that is more required.

Maybe my point is that blaming capitalism for corruption, inequality, destruction of environment, etc that all have existed throughout the whole human history is not all that fair. The funny thing is that I consider myself leftist, but I think we need at least some capitalism to make things work.

  On 7/23/2020 at 9:57 PM, zkom said:

Well, you can't really boycott something if government produces everything

But this isn't the only alternative to a solely profit oriented economy. A common good economy with workplace democracy and accounting that considers other values than solely money, such as environmental values, usefulness, ethics etc. is what we need. China's social score system is terrible but it shows that there can be other values introduced into the equation other than money. People that lived under absolutism couldn't imagine the world we live in today and it must have sounded totally utopian to them if someone tried to explain it to them but here we are. Humanity has progressed. And it can do that even further and hopefully does soon since we are heading towards disaster. Central & Northern Europe might get away comparatively lightly but millions of people might lose their basis of life because of climate change. Sorry, I do blame capitalism for it. Other systems being even worse doesn't mean it's great.

  On 7/23/2020 at 9:57 PM, zkom said:

Maybe my point is that blaming capitalism for corruption, inequality, destruction of environment, etc that all have existed throughout the whole human history is not all that fair. The funny thing is that I consider myself leftist, but I think we need at least some capitalism to make things work.

Maybe the current economic system was an improvement to what we had before but it can't be the end of history.

this is all getting too higher level thinking for the trump thread...let's dumb it back down again

  On 7/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, dingformung said:

no pure capitalism

No true scotsman argument

  On 7/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, dingformung said:

Eco-capitalism doesn't exist anywhere if you have a closer look

It is being implemented to varying degrees in some countries, and will be an ongoing process.

  On 7/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, dingformung said:

e) Is anything I said wrong and not a symptom of capitalism?

Kleptocracy is not a symptom of capitalism, it's a symptom of poor implementation of an economic policy tool. As I said earlier, you're committing the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent.

  On 7/23/2020 at 9:17 PM, dingformung said:

Global trading relationships create a lot of poverty, inequality and even slavery while destroying the planet. It's not a sustainable, fair & ecological model and in its extreme manifestations undermines democracy.

Capitalism and global trade are directly responsible for bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty in China, and not at the expense of others. Does capitalism create inequality? Yes, inasmuch as the market will pay for competence commensurate with the demand for required skills and supply of said skills. The gross inequality you see in the US for example (although nowhere close to the worst offender), is a result of bad tax regulation and lax enforcement.

  On 7/23/2020 at 10:08 PM, dingformung said:

common good economy with workplace democracy and accounting that considers other values than solely money, such as environmental values, usefulness, ethics etc. is what we need

You just described welfare capitalism and eco-capitalism. Ultimately successful corporations who want to exist far into the future will see that environmental protection is actually in their best interest. Which is why tax regulation on short-term capital gains should be much stricter (and levels of tax on short-term capital gains should be much higher).

  On 7/23/2020 at 7:40 PM, milkface said:

dont care. capitalism sucks donkey balls regardless. i never said it was unique i said it happened in it, along with the infinite amounts of other negative things that come along with capitalism

Do you enjoy using a small handheld device that connects you to all the world's information? What about safer cars or more energy efficient housing appliances? A wider variety of foods? The ability to power vehicles through battery technology, making it possible to reduce the pollution footprint by localizing the externalities? All products of capitalism. Want to improve it? Great. Just saying "it sucks donkey balls" doesn't help anything.

Yada yada yada

  On 7/23/2020 at 10:56 PM, chenGOD said:

Just saying "it sucks donkey balls" doesn't help anything.

It made me imagine someone sucking a donkey's balls. How is that not helpful, hmmm??

@cazeSuck donkey balls

 The fact you dumbed this:

  On 7/23/2020 at 7:45 PM, dingformung said:

Welfare capitalism is no pure capitalism. The welfare part of it isn't the capitalistic part as long as said welfare doesn't solely serve the purpose of increasing capital accummulations (e.g. for creating a functional workforce).

down to this:

  On 7/23/2020 at 10:56 PM, chenGOD said:

no pure capitalism

indicates that I might be onto something here.

I doubt many MAGAs turned that stimulus check down. Everyone likes social safety nets as long as the branding is right. That would be a lot easier if the States were actually “United”. 
 

We could be like an edgier Canada. Omg JUST IMAGINE

i agree with ding, eco c(r)apitalism isn't a thing.

caze licks the doctor's fingers at his prostate exam

  On 7/23/2020 at 11:39 PM, milkface said:

i agree with ding, eco c(r)apitalism isn't a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada

^It's just cosmetics. Canada's economy is far from being green.

  On 7/24/2020 at 12:28 AM, dingformung said:

^It's just cosmetics. Canada's economy is far from being green.

It’s being implemented in small steps. To make eco-capitalism work you have to have a massive shift in thinking. 
Changing the way a nation looks at macro-economic factors is going to take time. 

Someone who claims to have invented the Q character in the Qanon conspiracy theory has posted a confession.  No way to verify if this is all true or not, but my guess it shows how the whole thing most likely came about.

  On 7/24/2020 at 5:54 AM, chenGOD said:

It’s being implemented in small steps. To make eco-capitalism work you have to have a massive shift in thinking. 
Changing the way a nation looks at macro-economic factors is going to take time. 

So you do admit that eco-capitalism doesn't exist yet. All ecosystems are connected and interdependent. There are 15 million species living on this planet and 130 die out every day as a result of our economic system. There isn't much time left. The: "Ah we will figure it out, give it time, capitalism will solve it" narrative that's been told since the 80s is bullshit. In most cases it's more short-term profitable to ignore climate change and that's what's being done.

  On 7/24/2020 at 8:45 AM, scumtron said:

Someone who claims to have invented the Q character in the Qanon conspiracy theory has posted a confession.  No way to verify if this is all true or not, but my guess it shows how the whole thing most likely came about.

what's the tldr, I'm not nearly invested enough to read all that.

my guess:

1. for the lulz 

2. ?????

3. BAD PEEPL

  On 7/24/2020 at 11:31 AM, dingformung said:

So you do admit that eco-capitalism doesn't exist yet. All ecosystems are connected and interdependent. There are 15 million species living on this planet and 130 die out every day as a result of our economic system. There isn't much time left. The: "Ah we will figure it out, give it time, capitalism will solve it" narrative that's been told since the 80s is bullshit. In most cases it's more short-term profitable to ignore climate change and that's what's being done.

I admit no such thing: it's being implemented in small steps. It's not just Canada, and it's not just carbon pricing (although that is implemented in more countries than people realize - https://www.carbontax.org/where-carbon-is-taxed/) There needs to be a focus on the long-term: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/nov/26/capitalism-environment-green-greed-slow-life-symposium-tony-juniper

Since companies like to stay in business, they will follow demand: so the article above relates to the personal level. The choices we make as consumers will spur companies to be more green. On a macro level, see the next paragraph.

Bringing the thread back on topic somewhat, Biden's proposed climate strategy, although it appears socialist, will spur companies and corporations to adapt their production in line with where the governance and regulation aims to go: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/20/joe-biden-has-endorsed-the-green-new-deal-in-all-but-name

  On 7/24/2020 at 11:57 AM, Gocab said:

what's the tldr, I'm not nearly invested enough to read all that.

my guess:

1. for the lulz 

2. ?????

3. BAD PEEPL

Expand  

Ha that's what I was going to ask. As if these fucks have done anything worthwhile.

  On 7/24/2020 at 11:57 AM, Gocab said:

what's the tldr, I'm not nearly invested enough to read all that.

my guess:

1. for the lulz 

2. ?????

3. BAD PEEPL

Expand  

1. The Something Awful forums ignited a form of collaborative, geeky in-jokes in the late 90s .
2. This type of free form riffing developed into a psychedelic, baroque art form at 4chan a few years later, and went worldwide in the form of memes.
3.  Some of those jokes transitioned from the subforum /b ("random") - where they were understood as fiction - to /pol ("politics") - where they were taken at face value and developed into a collective cult psychosis.
4. 4chan was moderated relatively successfully and all the creeps/pedos/nazis/psychos went on to 8chan and 8kun, where the collective psychosis found even more fertile ground.

turns out networking the world means a lot of group therapy

  On 7/24/2020 at 5:36 PM, chenGOD said:

I admit no such thing: it's being implemented in small steps. It's not just Canada, and it's not just carbon pricing (although that is implemented in more countries than people realize - https://www.carbontax.org/where-carbon-is-taxed/) There needs to be a focus on the long-term: https://www.theguardian.com/sustainable-business/2014/nov/26/capitalism-environment-green-greed-slow-life-symposium-tony-juniper

Since companies like to stay in business, they will follow demand: so the article above relates to the personal level. The choices we make as consumers will spur companies to be more green. On a macro level, see the next paragraph.

Bringing the thread back on topic somewhat, Biden's proposed climate strategy, although it appears socialist, will spur companies and corporations to adapt their production in line with where the governance and regulation aims to go: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/20/joe-biden-has-endorsed-the-green-new-deal-in-all-but-name

 

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I find it too optimistic to believe that market arithmetics like supply and demand can fix it. There is no time for "small steps". Carbon pricing is bollocks. It's nice but it won't save the climate. Paying for doing damage doesn't undo the damage. So Canada wants to price it at 50 dollars a ton from 2022 on while experts have calculated that it has to be around 200 dollars to have any significant effect. It's cosmetics and not enough. And then we have places like the US that are responsible for a big deal of emissions while being completely unreliable and colonised by Big Business, I don't believe one word show master Biden says about him saving the planet, sorry. Capitalism as we know it today doesn't offer the right tools to tackle the problem. Speaking of having something even close to eco-capitalism at this time is grossly euphemistic. I think those who downplay the effects of climate change secretly know exactly how bad it will be and count on living in a place that is hit a little less hard, later turning it into a fortress that doesn't let climate refugees in.

  Quote

 

WHILE ANONYMOUS FEDERAL agents have thrown protesters into unmarked vans and fired tear gas at Portland’s mayor in recent days, an Air Force surveillance plane designed to carry state-of-the-art sensors typically reserved for war zones has circled the Oregon city’s outskirts from above.

The plane, a DO-328 “Cougar,” was spotted via the open source flight tracking website ADS-B Exchange, allowing the public to monitor its course. The Intercept reviewed this flight data, confirming tight, circular flights consistent with surveillance operations in and around Portland.

The aircraft is a twin-engine plane built in a modular fashion that allows it to be outfitted with long-range surveillance equipment suitable for supporting U.S. Special Operations commandos on the ground, according to Air Force documentation and previous public reporting. It was in Colorado earlier this month, looping over Denver and Boulder, before flying to Portland on July 19, and has been circling above Portland and its suburbs since July 21, according to publicly available flight data aggregated by websites like ADS-B Exchange.

 

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https://theintercept.com/2020/07/23/air-force-surveillance-plane-portland-protests/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=theintercept

privacy is over of course. flying data collection sucking up the details. creepy. 

Carbon pricing by itself won't accomplish anything, we also need technological advancement and the political will to implement it (via subsidies, research grants, etc). Carrot and stick is required. None of this is in the slightest bit incompatible with capitalism.

  On 7/24/2020 at 5:36 PM, chenGOD said:

Bringing the thread back on topic somewhat, Biden's proposed climate strategy, although it appears socialist, will spur companies and corporations to adapt their production in line with where the governance and regulation aims to go: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jul/20/joe-biden-has-endorsed-the-green-new-deal-in-all-but-name

Biden's plan is very different from the green new deal, which wouldn't have accomplished shit. He's pro-nuclear, which is a requirement for any successful climate change fix. 

The biggest obstacle to fixing climate change at the moment isn't capitalism, it's the environmental lobby.

good podcast episode on the portland secret police:

Rational Security: The 'Not-So-Secret Police' Edition

  On 7/24/2020 at 8:12 PM, dingformung said:

later turning it into a fortress that doesn't let climate refugees in.

That was a great Tom Cruise movie.

  On 7/24/2020 at 8:46 PM, caze said:

Biden's plan is very different from the green new deal,

No it's not: https://insideclimatenews.org/news/04062019/joe-biden-climate-change-plan-presidential-candidates-green-new-deal-clean-energy-obama

https://www.newyorker.com/news/annals-of-a-warming-planet/what-joe-bidens-climate-plan-really-signals

https://slate.com/business/2020/07/joe-bidens-climate-plan-is-the-green-new-deal-minus-the-crazy.html

https://www.ecowatch.com/green-new-deal-aoc-biden-climate-panel-2645987807.html?rebelltitem=5#rebelltitem5