jordan peterson

people don't choose to go through surgery/hormones... that's a necessary consequence of the desire to change sex. it's the desire to change sex (and the underlying feeling that your gender is not what you thought) that is the root cause, that's what you should be focusing on when you question whether it's a mental illness or not. having to go through surgery/hormones has no bearing on how legitimate the desire to change sex is or not, it's just an effect of that root cause.

anyway, that desire is complex and I don't fully understand it as a straight man. if I were to hazard a guess based on my education on the issue thus far, I'd say that, as with most complex issues, there's a balance: some people might be unsure about their gender because of deep-seated psychological problems, and that requires therapy, but a possible solution can also be to support the person through a sex change if they're definite about identifying with an other gender and definite about wanting to go through the process of changing their sex. there's no one-size-fits-all solution, you have to know the person you're talking about.

I think that's a good way to put it, thank you.

If it were positioned that way to the masses I think the general population would be much more supportive and receptive to it.

  On 2/14/2018 at 2:54 AM, usagi said:

people don't choose to go through surgery/hormones... that's a necessary consequence of the desire to change sex. it's the desire to change sex (and the underlying feeling that your gender is not what you thought) that is the root cause, that's what you should be focusing on when you question whether it's a mental illness or not. having to go through surgery/hormones has no bearing on how legitimate the desire to change sex is or not, it's just an effect of that root cause.

 

anyway, that desire is complex and I don't fully understand it as a straight man. if I were to hazard a guess based on my education on the issue thus far, I'd say that, as with most complex issues, there's a balance: some people might be unsure about their gender because of deep-seated psychological problems, and that requires therapy, but a possible solution can also be to support the person through a sex change if they're definite about identifying with an other gender and definite about wanting to go through the process of changing their sex. there's no one-size-fits-all solution, you have to know the person you're talking about.

you guys seem to be conflating transgender and transsexual alot. i don't think anyone here is saying that people shouldn't be assume whatever gender roles they find most appealing. however, there is a large part of me that wonders why we don't try to treat transexuality as a mental health problem instead of encouraging these incredibly invasive surgeries and disruptive hormone therapies that have to be maintained over their lifetime. it honestly seems predatory to me on the part of the surgeons and pharmaceutical companies profiting from it. i would only hope that there is some mandatory counseling for would be transexuals as to the dangers of the procedure. i believe i've also heard but not confirmed that the suicide rate for transexuals increases after transitioning.

of course none of this has anything to do with jordan peterson who is only trying to raise awareness about c-16 and compelled speech and what precedent that sets.

many transgendered people will want to transition to a sex that matches their preferred gender, yes? that's who we're talking about, where is the confusion?

  On 2/14/2018 at 4:04 AM, juiceciuj said:

you guys seem to be conflating transgender and transsexual alot. i don't think anyone here is saying that people shouldn't be assume whatever gender roles they find most appealing. however, there is a large part of me that wonders why we don't try to treat transexuality as a mental health problem instead of encouraging these incredibly invasive surgeries and disruptive hormone therapies that have to be maintained over their lifetime. it honestly seems predatory to me on the part of the surgeons and pharmaceutical companies profiting from it. i would only hope that there is some mandatory counseling for would be transexuals as to the dangers of the procedure. i believe i've also heard but not confirmed that the suicide rate for transexuals increases after transitioning.

 

of course none of this has anything to do with jordan peterson who is only trying to raise awareness about c-16 and compelled speech and what precedent that sets.

in order to be approved for surgery, hormone therapy a person undergoes a mental health interview to see if the person is appropriate and if the process is suitable etc etc.. this has been the situation for a while.. i think it's different for minors who require parental involvement but for the most part what you are asking is something that already happens. 

i guess if a person has enough money that these things can be circumvented but throwing out "there is a large part of me that wonders why we don't try to treat transexuality as a mental health problem" is offensive to a lot of people and is something that was said about gay people for a long time until the mass of humanity was educated as to what being gay actually is. saying it's a mental health issue implies something don't you think? i mean.. it's saying "no you aren't really feeling the things you are feeling.. you're just crazy and you have mental health problems.. so take these pills that will suppress those thoughts and numb you into acceptance of your current state of existence"

someone could say the same thing about 'mental health' assumptions/diagnosis in this scenario "why not just take hormones and have surgery instead of take tranquilizers for the rest of your life?"

Again, one involves substantial surgical body modification + a lifetime of drugs, and one does not.

Stop conflating gay + transexual, completely different.

I'm going to make a false equivalency here - if someone strongly identified as a double amputee, would you support surgical removal of their limbs?

edit: also, you realize the current approach to transgender is exactly what you said - "take these pills that will suppress those thoughts... etc". That is literally hormone therapy. Rather than be supportive of and provide therapy etc for underlying psychological issues the current medical regime is happy to say "yes, here is your expensive (oft gov't funded) surgery + lifetime of expensive medicine" rather than legitimate support for their issues. It's a great example of big pharma to be fair. 

I'm very aware that gender identity is a real issue, I just don't believe in the current "diagnosis" and "prescription"; I think this is evidenced by suicide rates etc that it's not effective for helping trans with their underlying complexes. 

- redacted - 

  On 2/14/2018 at 4:43 AM, Bulk VanderHooj said:

Again, one involves substantial surgical body modification + a lifetime of drugs, and one does not.

 

Stop conflating gay + transexual, completely different.

it's a state of the mind in some ways though ay? i mean.. being 'different' or considered deviant or something.. all those people get lumped in the same category.. outcasts.. until there's a "will and grace" for trans on network TV..

i think we need to (just for a moment) stop looking at the logistics or mechanics or physicality of it and think about what it feels like to be "other" in society and not feel like you can be yourself or belong even in your own skin. and trying really hard to figure things out and deep solid inner thoughts and have someone tell you you're "experiencing a mental health problem". 

yes gay and trans are different.. sure.. these clearly are different situations but instead of saying "mental health" perhaps we can just be accepting of people who are trying to figure shit out or maybe have figured it out and are moving forward w/their lives as they see best. 

life is too short. let people be who they need to be. 

not everyone gets the surgery btw.. they just live as the sex that fits them. 

there's an interesting frontline episode "growing up trans" that might be useful or perhaps just further fuel for the fire. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/growing-up-trans/

edit: i don't think you hate gays/trans and wouldn't be dismissive. i know nothing more than most here and consider this just an opportunity to talk it out some and maybe see what other people think.

i think a lot of this is pretty new territory for the medical world and psychological world and society to some degree.. though trans and drag queens and pretty much every scenario has existed at all times in human existence and there's plenty of studies to show that gender is fluid and probably just as many to show it isn't.. but i see no reason to oppress people or limit to exploration of their own best existence. living in portland i've met many people who are trans and see people go through a transition or live somewhere in between.  

Great response, thank you.

The only part I want to respond to is RE "not everyone gets the surgery" - this is legitimately my focus - those that don't get gender re-assignment surgery are often happy and successful living out their lives regardless of what their genitals look like.

IE there's a conflict between gender norms and gender absolutes (as dictated by physicality). 

  On 2/14/2018 at 5:04 AM, ignatius said:

 

 

edit: i don't think you hate gays/trans and wouldn't be dismissive. i know nothing more than most here and consider this just an opportunity to talk it out some and maybe see what other people think.

 

i think a lot of this is pretty new territory for the medical world and psychological world and society to some degree.. though trans and drag queens and pretty much every scenario has existed at all times in human existence and there's plenty of studies to show that gender is fluid and probably just as many to show it isn't.. but i see no reason to oppress people or limit to exploration of their own best existence. living in portland i've met many people who are trans and see people go through a transition or live somewhere in between.  

 

Yeah man, pretty much this. 

Interesting times we live in. I can't say I'll ever fully (or even close to) understand most people, just happy to talk it out and try and get it.

Apologies RE the dismissive comment - was certainly not directing that at you, I just automatically figured I'd get some nasty comments back on mine (as I'm cognizant it probably seems pretty ignorant). I deleted that comment now. 

edit-edit - I know we've digressed far beyond the point of the JP thread - sorry Zaphod et al.   

I'll derail this. Just listened to Russel brand and harris. I'll listen to his interview with Peterson next. The idea that these guys are intellectuals in our age is a joke but appropriate. They are lightweight internet contrarians whose lives exist purely because of the mass society mass media isolation in which we live. Science amd rationality is manipykated by them for their own thinly veiled ideological ends

those evil manipykators.

Personally, I dislike people who choose user names with a combination of letters that spell “autopilot” and have had sexual relations with both males and females. Since I should definitely be able to discriminate against those kinds of people, I should be able to ban them from participating here, right? That’s how this thing works?

i especially like the rhetorical ticks that these dudes employ...so insecure...great example of how meditation did more harm than good

lets for a second take some facts

you're confusing two things

shall we just unpack these points

lets conduct a thought experiment

you're not understanding this correctly 

lets take this very small particular example and base our entire thesis upon it

if we're in a simulation...

bare with me for a moment 

its just the nature of things

let me explain this to you

MANIPIKATORS!

Each of those (leading) statements seem manipulative. 

Reminds me of TV evangelists tbh lol. ,

jordan peterson looks like he stinks

  On 2/14/2018 at 7:10 AM, zaphod said:

jordan peterson looks like he stinks

                                 "looks like rotting carnival food - probably smells like decaying corndogs and outhouses"

ITT

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DgbdH4MEUI

internet.com

He seems like catnip for both the alt-right and SJWs. A shame, because I think he has some interesting things to say, but once you're co-opted in the culture wars, it's game over in terms of being taken seriously.

  On 2/14/2018 at 12:03 PM, usagi said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DgbdH4MEUI

lol

he just tried to pick a fight with a zizek quotes account.

thx for entertaining my questions. I actually learned something here, appreciative.

  On 2/14/2018 at 10:47 PM, dr lopez said:

he just tried to pick a fight with a zizek quotes account.

lol

my ex has been going on about this guy the last few times we met, she then also sent me a link to a video interview; haven’t watched that video yet; haven’t replied to that text yet; all of it happened before this thread.

Still haven’t clicked on any video link or anything, my sole sources of information about Mr Peterson are what my ex said & this Thread (yes, a Capital T Thread) - I now feel intellectually equipped to discuss Mr Peterson with her through watmm secondary literature and I want to thank,