How does the World view China these days?

I doubt it

  On 4/9/2021 at 8:08 AM, cyanobacteria said:

China's rate isn't even 18% of the US's.  I know you guys love to hate China but at least get the numbers right

Look at the numbers provided. Sure if you want to go by per capita, then yes, but total numbers are very similar and that’s just counting the official count from China. 

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:50 AM, rhmilo said:

Going out on a limb here and say you’re white.

 

Going out on a limb here and gonna say you’ve never been to prison (Canadian prisons in the early 90s were grim, but still better than Chinese ones now). And never visited one in a country outside of the Netherlands (South Korean prisons in the 2000’s and today are fucking horrible places, and very similar to Chinese prisons). 
The fuck does me being white have anything to do with saying the comparison is ridiculous. It’s the same as when people try and call the US a 3rd world country (even if what they mean is a developing country). 

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:10 PM, Satans Little Helper said:

"How does the world view Saudi Arabia these days"

Perhaps that thread won't be reduced to "capitalism yes/no"?

 

The only reason that place exists is because of capitalism gone nuts, so it probably would.

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:34 PM, chenGOD said:

It’s the same as when people try and call the US a 3rd world country (even if what they mean is a developing country)

I’ve only visited the US once, two years ago, but I got distinct 3rd world vibes from it. Everything was flimsy, dirty and decrepit. In fact, unlike the 3rd world countries I’ve visited, the US couldn’t even keep the roads in front of its main government buildings free from potholes. Such a dump.

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:47 PM, rhmilo said:

I’ve only visited the US once, two years ago, but I got distinct 3rd world vibes from it. Everything was flimsy, dirty and decrepit. In fact, unlike the 3rd world countries I’ve visited, the US couldn’t even keep the roads in front of its main government buildings free from potholes. Such a dump.

Yes, but semantically the US is a (the?) first world country. It's a Cold War era term.

1st world: Western industrialized democracies

2nd world: USSR and socialist states under USSR influence

3rd world: Rest of the world

  On 4/9/2021 at 8:27 AM, cyanobacteria said:

f you're poor you literally just have to admit you did it even if you didn't, then go to prison to avoid going to prison even longer

You have literally no idea how the criminal justice system works. 

  On 4/9/2021 at 2:47 PM, rhmilo said:

ve only visited the US once, two years ago, but I got distinct 3rd world vibes from it. Everything was flimsy, dirty and decrepit. In fact, unlike the 3rd world countries I’ve visited, the US couldn’t even keep the roads in front of its main government buildings free from potholes. Such a dump.

 Not to gatekeep, but if you ever actually visit a developing or poor country, you’ll understand why the comparison is wrong. 
Myanmar, potholes in roads out the yahoo, and the way they fix them is by having two guys with no safety equipment drive around with an open cart full of hot pitch who then shovel it into the pothole. Consistent power blackouts, no running water for a lot of the day, none of it potable, complete lack of adequate medical facilities let alone advanced medicine.

Cambodia same, Thailand is good in the cities but the country side is terrible, etc etc 

North Korea don’t even get me started.

Im guessing you visited Washington DC. Compared to Amsterdam or other Dutch cities yes not as clean, but I disagree with the decrepit description. Roads in the US are generally the responsibilities of the state or city, not the federal government, unlike the interstates, which (except for the American drivers) are a joy to drive on. The US in general (even the poverty level areas) simply cannot be compared to developing nations.

  On 4/9/2021 at 8:13 AM, ignatius said:

there is a very big difference, generally, in how different demographics perceive authorities in america. the realities are different for sure. history of how blacks were treated in america has ingrained mistrust of the federal gov't, cops, the courts and just about every level of the criminal justice system.. or any  kind of bureaucracy really. 

so, what a person of color might think about comparisons to the justice system in china might be closer to what they think of the justice system in america than white people care to admit.. as ridiculous as i or anyone might think the comparison is for whatever reasons... there's people who have real reasons for thinking the comparison has merit... usually because they've  seen the gov't do whatever it wants regardless of who is in the way.

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The issue there is perception. No one is here arguing that POC in the US haven’t gotten the raw end of the deal. But there is no comparison to how the justice system works in the two countries, regardless of perception.

  On 4/9/2021 at 3:31 PM, chenGOD said:

Not to gatekeep, but if you ever actually visit a developing or poor country, you’ll understand why the comparison is wrong. 
Myanmar, potholes in roads out the yahoo, and the way they fix them is by having two guys with no safety equipment drive around with an open cart full of hot pitch who then shovel it into the pothole. Consistent power blackouts, no running water for a lot of the day, none of it potable, complete lack of adequate medical facilities let alone advanced medicine.

Not to gatekeep, but I’ve lived in Indonesia in the 1980s. There were potholes everywhere and often  not  even a road at all but the tarmac in front if the presidential palace was impeccable.

  On 4/9/2021 at 4:45 PM, rhmilo said:

There were potholes everywhere and often  not  even a road at all but the tarmac in front if the presidential palace was impeccable.

So what you're telling me is that corruption from the "leaders" of the country made sure that they had good roads outside the palace, while the rest of the country went to shit. What a surprise.

As well, there should be many fewer potholes in Jakarta, as the pavement will not be subjected to the changes in temperature that exist in Washington DC.

speaking of America or China as a monolith is one fault in the discussion y'all are having.

both are huge countries, physically, and conditions of infrastructure, living, and civil liberties vary vastly (all 3 hold true in America, i assume as much for China but could be wrong)...not to mention the timeline of changing norms over the last few decades has shifted drastically as well. you're all pretty intelligent people and you know this, but i'm not sure you're considering it.

America very obviously has a serious problem with its policing on local and federal levels. it is beyond a travesty and is undeniably unsustainable. many of the views of it make it look worse than China, many of the things China does relating to their policing both re: actual surveillance, arrests, and imprisonments (including possible genocidal tendencies) also is very bad. on some of those perspectives China looks worse. b o t h a r e v e r y b a d as someone already stated last page, i think that's what basically everyone is saying. parsing the badness is interesting when fact-based, but y'all are discussing road conditions from 40 years ago now so 

chen, you're fighting just to fight, there's plenty of truth in what rhmilo and Zeff are getting at, and i don't think they're anywhere stating China = USA or China > USA (okay maybe Zeff is but who the fuck knows with Zeff). you're trying to pick at the margins....you're literally trying to provide climate differences in relation to road conditions as some sort of a serious point of discussion here. go have a beer or jerk off or something man, jesus.

  On 4/9/2021 at 3:19 PM, chenGOD said:

You have literally no idea how the criminal justice system works. 

you aren't even american right lmao

i wonder whether the US-funded mass murder of communists in Jakarta affected its pothole ratio

  On 4/9/2021 at 5:48 PM, cyanobacteria said:

i wonder whether the US-funded mass murder of communists in Jakarta affected its pothole ratio

depends on if they melted the corpses with asphalt to use for filling potholes. 

  On 4/9/2021 at 5:43 PM, cyanobacteria said:

you aren't even american right lmao

And apparently I know more about your criminal justice system than you.

  On 4/9/2021 at 5:35 PM, auxien said:

b o t h a r e v e r y b a d as someone already stated last page, i think that's what basically everyone is saying. parsing the badness is interesting when fact-based, but y'all are discussing road conditions from 40 years ago now so 

chen, you're fighting just to fight, there's plenty of truth in what rhmilo and Zeff are getting at, and i don't think they're anywhere stating China = USA

Both are bad, but zeff has in this thread said that they are the same, which I find insulting to people in HK (for example) who have had their democracy taken away from them. Whereas the recent elections in America showed that upholding democratic principles and elections can actually make a change (and no zeff, Biden and the democrats are not the same as trump and the republicans).

I find it particularly insulting as well on a personal level when I have a friend locked in a cell with no access to due process, denied visitation rights, tried on vague charges (as opposed to specific offenses like you know, happens in the US), with no transparency to the process at all.

  On 4/9/2021 at 5:35 PM, auxien said:

America very obviously has a serious problem with its policing on local and federal levels. it is beyond a travesty and is undeniably unsustainable. many of the views of it make it look worse than China

America does have serious problems with policing and its criminal justice system. None of them are worse than China.

  On 4/9/2021 at 5:35 PM, auxien said:

you're literally trying to provide climate differences in relation to road conditions as some sort of a serious point of discussion here

The road conditions were being used as an example of infrastructure to say that the comparisons to developing nations is ridiculous. While I was comparing road conditions in present day Myanmar or Cambodia to the US, rhmilo somehow found it appropriate to bring up Indonesia in the 80s. Sure, climate conditions may seem a wild tangent, but the point is, with good governance in Indonesia, the roads and similar infrastructure would be in immaculate condition. But because of corruption and lack of investment, the roads are shit.

It's only relevant because it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion on the issue when some will consider America as similar to a developing nation when it's actually not at all.

Anyways back to jerking off into my beer.

  On 4/9/2021 at 3:37 PM, chenGOD said:

The issue there is perception. No one is here arguing that POC in the US haven’t gotten the raw end of the deal. But there is no comparison to how the justice system works in the two countries, regardless of perception.

 

i'd say yes and no.. the black experience is very different than the white experience.. generally.  as is poor person experience vs rich person experience. 

perception is based on history and experience. it's not so long ago when black people could be rounded up if they broke curfew..  there were 'sundown' laws for black people in many towns and cities.. not just for black people but for asians as well.. 

anyway.. the only point i was trying to make is many, especially older, african americans might not respond so well if you told them their perception was ridiculous as they might have receipts to back it up. 

the fear of being locked up, tried, executed for nothing or just lynched by a mob is only just in the rear view mirror. 

but yes, the justice systems work in very different ways in usa/china but i'd imagine there's a similar climate of fear for certain populations in china as there is in america. 

everything in china operates in a very different way. 

in that netflix doc i posted called "american factory" there are many examples. there's no OSHA in china. there's a scene in that doc where workers are sorting piles of broken glass at the glass factory with no eye protection and improper gloves and the usa management team who's there for training.. say outloud "What the fuck? they're not wearing eye protection and those aren't slice proof gloves and they do this all day?"  

in china, there's a weird pride for workers for being like robots and maximizing efficiency and output by essentially giving over their lives to the factory. it's exploitation. in this way china is like pre-union industrial revolution era USA. but soaked in a militaristic nationalism

there's some sweet moments in the doc showcasing the bonds made between americans and the chinese workers there training them but overall it's pretty fucked up look at modernity. 

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:17 PM, chenGOD said:

And apparently I know more about your criminal justice system than you.

i dont know why you think that. why the fuck do you think america has the MOST PEOPLE IN PRISON OF ANY COUNTRY ON EARTH? maybe because the system is literal BS and you go to prison for no reason lmao if youre poor or nonwhite

i can't really pick a favourite between china & the usa, i'd much rather pick between "entirely new geopolitical order comes to power that isn't Global Amazon Warehouse" or "things never get so bad that a person can't live somewhat autonomously on the outskirts of society"

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, chenGOD said:

Both are bad, but zeff has in this thread said that they are the same, which I find insulting to people in HK (for example) who have had their democracy taken away from them. Whereas the recent elections in America showed that upholding democratic principles and elections can actually make a change (and no zeff, Biden and the democrats are not the same as trump and the republicans).

I find it particularly insulting as well on a personal level when I have a friend locked in a cell with no access to due process, denied visitation rights, tried on vague charges (as opposed to specific offenses like you know, happens in the US), with no transparency to the process at all.

America does have serious problems with policing and its criminal justice system. None of them are worse than China.

 

The road conditions were being used as an example of infrastructure to say that the comparisons to developing nations is ridiculous. While I was comparing road conditions in present day Myanmar or Cambodia to the US, rhmilo somehow found it appropriate to bring up Indonesia in the 80s. Sure, climate conditions may seem a wild tangent, but the point is, with good governance in Indonesia, the roads and similar infrastructure would be in immaculate condition. But because of corruption and lack of investment, the roads are shit.

It's only relevant because it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion on the issue when some will consider America as similar to a developing nation when it's actually not at all.

Anyways back to jerking off into my beer.

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democracy taken away from them in hk? i assume you mean the extradition agreement for a fucking cold blooded murderer?

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:07 PM, cyanobacteria said:

democracy taken away from them in hk? i assume you mean the extradition agreement for a fucking cold blooded murderer?

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, chenGOD said:

I find it particularly insulting as well on a personal level when I have a friend locked in a cell with no access to due process, denied visitation rights, tried on vague charges (as opposed to specific offenses like you know, happens in the US), with no transparency to the process at all.

ever heard of Guantanamo? (sarcasm, but you're obviously choosing to forget that it still exists and is/was doing literally exactly these things)

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, chenGOD said:

America does have serious problems with policing and its criminal justice system. None of them are worse than China.

arguable. our incarceration rate is obv far higher than China's, for starters. don't give a fuck about going back and forth either, so don't even bother w me on that, i've stated what i wanted to re: that.

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, chenGOD said:

It's only relevant because it is impossible to have a meaningful discussion on the issue when some will consider America as similar to a developing nation when it's actually not at all.

you've not seen the America that plenty of us have seen. there are pockets that aren't a hell of a lot better conditions than some developing nations, by some metrics (child mortality, education, upward mobility, etc., i'm pulling all of these out of my ass btw as i'm not here to trade links with you because you're in a pissy mood like you mentioned a page or so ago). 3rd world vibes as rhmilo stated is very similar to sentiments i've had about places i've been. i know that that feeling was an exaggeration, there's probably almost nowhere in America that truly = 'third world' but the decline and rot in the people isn't apparent from the outside or from many of the numbers thrown about, unless you're looking for it....or you see it up close and personal....the many aspects of a 'third world vibe' are there, if not in full tilt like one would expect in an actual third world living situation. the comparison isn't exact, but it's not as far off as you're acting like it is.

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, ignatius said:

the fear of being locked up, tried, executed for nothing or just lynched by a mob is only just in the rear view mirror. 

this is literally still happening as recently as last year.

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, ignatius said:

anyway.. the only point i was trying to make is many, especially older, african americans might not respond so well if you told them their perception was ridiculous as they might have receipts to back it up. 

yep. still very disgusting for many POC and specifically at the southern border re: the treatment of migrants/asylum seekers, as well.

Let's see how the rest of the world looks at China, I forgot that I had all these news sources saved from previous work:

India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/china/indian-army-strengthens-mountain-strikes-corps-looking-after-china-border/articleshow/81986152.cms

https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/11th-corps-commander-talks-between-india-and-china-at-chusul/article34281541.ece

Philippines

https://www.manilatimes.net/2021/04/10/news/national/military-to-probe-boat-chase-in-wps/862171/

https://www.philstar.com/headlines/2021/04/09/2089982/chinese-missile-boats-drive-away-filipino-tv-crew-west-philippine-sea

Malaysia

https://www.nst.com.my/opinion/columnists/2021/03/673374/ensuring-freedom-navigation

That's from the Ministry of Defence, where he writes: "This will not only contribute to the MDA (Marine Domain Awareness) for Malaysia and Singapore, but also to New Zealand and Australia, since both nations are surrounded by tropical waters and inherent threats of illegal activities from deep-sea Chinese fishermen. "

South Korea

http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2021/04/05/2021040501484.html

The Chosun Ilbo is a very conservative newspaper, so they like to slam the current administration (which got spanked in recent mayoral elections) as much as they can, but their thoughts on China are very reflective of contemporary South Korean thought.

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, ignatius said:

i'd say yes and no.. the black experience is very different than the white experience.. generally.  as is poor person experience vs rich person experience. 

perception is based on history and experience. it's not so long ago when black people could be rounded up if they broke curfew..  there were 'sundown' laws for black people in many towns and cities.. not just for black people but for asians as well.. 

anyway.. the only point i was trying to make is many, especially older, african americans might not respond so well if you told them their perception was ridiculous as they might have receipts to back it up. 

Expand  

Obviously the perception of the US justice system will be very different depending on socio-economic class, and as I've said - there are numerous issues with the US criminal justice system, and this is not to invalidate those experiences within that system. I'm saying that their perception of the US system does not make the comparison between the two systems (US and Chinese) legitimate.

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, auxien said:

3rd world vibes as rhmilo stated is very similar to sentiments i've had about places i've been. i know that that feeling was an exaggeration, there's probably almost nowhere in America that truly = 'third world' but the decline and rot in the people isn't apparent from the outside or from many of the numbers thrown about, unless you're looking for it....or you see it up close and personal....the many aspects of a 'third world vibe' are there, if not in full tilt like one would expect in an actual third world living situation. the comparison isn't exact, but it's not as far off as you're acting like it is.

How about Flint and Detroit (not downtown Detroit)? I've been to both of those places (Detroit numerous times), seen the vacant housing, all the run-down facilities etc etc. there's still no comparison in my opinion.

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, auxien said:

ever heard of Guantanamo? (sarcasm, but you're obviously choosing to forget that it still exists and is/was doing literally exactly these things)

You're right, and I did actually forget about that, but that's also abhorrent.

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, auxien said:

arguable. our incarceration rate is obv far higher than China's, for starters. don't give a fuck about going back and forth either

Arguable but you don't want to go back and forth - weird flex but whatevs.

US reported incarceration rate sure, but again, the fixes are quite easy in comparison to China. Get rid of Broken Windows policing, remove stop and frisk, decriminalization of drug possession, mandatory minimums, and 3 strike laws. Some places are actually attempting to do so.

In China, not so simple, because you have a lot of people in prison for doing things like criticizing the government. If the government turns around and lets those people out, they essentially sanction criticism of the CCP.

  On 4/9/2021 at 7:21 PM, auxien said:

  On 4/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, ignatius said:

the fear of being locked up, tried, executed for nothing or just lynched by a mob is only just in the rear view mirror. 

this is literally still happening as recently as last year.

Also - here's the difference, yes those things happen in the US. In China though, it's policy and law, and people are scared to raise high hell about it, because they'll go to prison for it.

And while protestors under Trump's authoritarian justice department were arrested last summer, charges against them are being dismissed in droves.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/19/us/protests-lawsuits-arrests.html

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/investigations/portland-protest-cases-dismissed-feds/283-002f01d2-3217-4b12-8725-3fda2cad119f

I guarantee you that does not happen in China.